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 Post subject: WHAT is REALITY??
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:11 pm 
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Long disputed question, I've recently read a book titled 'Secrets of the Crystal Skull' which well explains this, but I'd nevertheless like to get some feedback.

I think that Shamanic travelling is a product of the mind. In this case it is just like ordinary reality, which is also a product of the mind. The only difference being that we see things very differently, we see different landscapes, and the forces of nature become personified. I think everything has a soul, but of course we can't access that on this level very easily. We have to go into the shamanic mode, or use runes or other forms of magic.
So keeping in mind that everything has a spirit, and that the 'otherworlds' are (in my view) created within the mind, this leaves the question of OBEs. I don't think OBEs and shamanic journeys are the same. In OBEs we see relatives of those who have died, but not so much our own personification of a force of nature, whether it be the fairy of the bluebell, or the force of the north west wind.

So, what I'm asking is, what is the difference between seeing a loved one who has recently died and seeing a personification of nature? Is one created by us, and the other is not? Likewise with aliens etc, how can we tell what has been created by us?

I believe that we are eternal, and that everything is eternal, and that everything has a soul. Perhaps when we see a nature spirit or when we speak to a Celtic God, we are speaking to a living, and very real force of nature, although the way in which different cultures personify this is different. For example, I've descovered that most shamanic-based cultured in the world seem to be fundimentally the same, only the language of the culture and its geography and to an extent its history of stories differ.

Am I right in thinking that spirits are in the upper world (spirits of other humans etc) whilst the spirits of nature lie in the underworld. There appears to be a difference here.


Many kind regards and blessings


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:06 am 
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I do not agree with the concept, that shamanic traveling is a concept of mind, because there have been things beoynd imaginations. Can mind show anything else than, what is familiar with it or bring a vision which greatly changes worldview. I doubt it.
When working with consciousness it is not really same as mind. Moving your consciousness into certain places needs mind to be still, focused so your precense can go where mind leads. Astral projection is to be said, that astral body (some sources tell astral and emotional body are same) leaves body through solar plexus and travels this middleworld wherever wants to.

I am not sure at all, that shamanic journeying is same as these two later examples. But I have not much experience about the matter to tell anyway.
What is shamanic journeying and what happens during it and why, what are the biochemical, -mechanical procedures in the body? There is a theory, that body can exract hallusigenic substance DMT from pineal gland. IS it true and how it affects and why...? Maybe somebody knows.

There are no absolut truth, where certain forms of spirit helpers live. Anyway I have most often seen animal forms at lower world and human forms upperworld, but there is no rule. I have seen it mixed.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:16 am 
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A definition of reality from Wikipedia:
"Reality, in everyday usage, means 'the state of things as they actually exist.' Literally, the term denotes what is real; in its widest sense, this includes everything that is, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible. Reality in this sense includes being, and sometimes is considered to include nothingness, as well. By contrast, the term existence is often restricted solely to being (compare with nature)."

Shaman are not bound by reality. Nor are they bound by any concept of the mind. If you close your eyes, and hear my voice, where am I? In your mind? No. Even though you cannot see me, I still exist.

The same is true for the Worlds - all of them, whether they are in reality or non-ordinary reality. They all exist. As humans, we cannot access many of these worlds. But as shaman, we can. Because for a Shaman, EVERYTHING exists. It does not have to be "real" in order to exist.

It is true... nothing is in the mind...everything is outside of it.


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:39 am 
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[color=black]So, what I'm asking is, what is the difference between seeing a loved one who has recently died and seeing a personification of nature? Is one created by us, and the other is not? Likewise with aliens etc, how can we tell what has been created by us?[/color]



None of them are created by you.Your reaction to them is your creation,the difference between seeing a loved one and seeing a bear is that your loved one has shared your life and vice versa,you dont create something that came before you,your misinterpretations just a god complex,not unheard of in our present society were we seek control and fear a lack thereof,a personification of nature is a non human spirit that see's something in common with you,you do not create them out of your subcontiouse,you learn to communicate with respect or live in ignorance and fear,the word reality is subjective and misunderstood,we created this word to explain something that is still not completely understood by this generation,individual reality comes from interactions,thousands of them a day,some are in our control but most of them are borrowed from others reality as they percieve it,how we percieve reality is the thing that makes the individual,not the reality that they presently find themselves,the Shamanist learns to navigate through and with these and others but he doesnt create them mentally,its like a blind person that was born blind but one day awoke with sight,that doesnt mean that they created everything they see just because its there,theyr perceptions of them are their own but everything you see has a spirit of its own that operates independantly of your control,we take on many illusions to bolster our ego,in Shamanism this is one of the things that have to be resolved before you can move forward,the spirit presents itself at differnt times in our lives in a manner that we can percieve at that time,just as the spirit is working through you right now,through your interactions every day,sometimes the smallest thing that you wouldnt think twice about is the entire reason for your being here at this time in this place to effect something or someone in a positive way that will facilitate the circle of existance,millions of interactions,we are not in control we are not the center of the universe we just are,being self aware is a form of perception,realizing that everything is self aware and with practice we can communicate and interact with non humans at their level is the next step in our evolution,somehow the more advanced technically we become the more concieted we're becomming,if for some reason all humanity took a dirt nap how woujld that effect reality in the world,not one bit,it would only effect our perception of our present situation,if lucky enough mabe we could be the totems in the life of a Redwood tree.sorry for being so windy,hope it helps you along.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Reality is what we perceive and believe.


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:18 pm 
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Rachara El wrote:
It is true... nothing is in the mind...everything is outside of it.
I would beg to differ, we can not know reality with out our mind. Reality exists because and as it does because of our mind.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:58 am 
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Shaman of Chaos wrote:
Rachara El wrote:
It is true... nothing is in the mind...everything is outside of it.
I would beg to differ, we can not know reality with out our mind. Reality exists because and as it does because of our mind.


Which was first: egg or chicken?


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:09 am 
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Each of us is one tiny facet of consciousness on the immense diamond of divine consciousness. Each of us participates in and witnesses the unfathomable creative power of the divine consciousness at play within itself. Each of us is a co-creator of the "realities" that, first, we physically perceive as exterior to our limited physical being and, second, that we build as interior representations of our personalities acting in that "exterior" world.

When we transcend the limits of our physical being and interior representations by moving beyond our five senses and our sense of separation from the physical world around us, we come home to our true place as co-creators of the universe, of reality, both ordinary and non-ordinary. With this understanding comes both immense responsibility not to act out of fear, greed, lust, etc. and an overwhelming sense of awe, Awe implies both profound humility and great joy.

So, both "exterior and interior" realities are what we make them to be. Be thoughtful and be careful, very very careful.

Chris


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 Post subject: Re: WHAT is REALITY??
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 6:42 pm 
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[quote="MacAoidh"]Long disputed question, I've recently read a book titled 'Secrets of the Crystal Skull' which well explains this, but I'd nevertheless like to get some feedback.

I think that Shamanic travelling is a product of the mind. In this case it is just like ordinary reality, which is also a product of the mind.

...................

I am new to this forum, so I hope you won't mind my jumping right in!

I'd have to say that I agree what you wrote the above, but by this I mean to say that I believe what the ancient teachers have meant by the idea of the "Mind". For ex: Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi said:

"There is no difference between the dream and the waking states except that the dream is short and the waking long. Both are the result of the mind."

These teachers will tell you that everything, all creation in both the physical realms and the spiritual realms are the product of the Mind - namely "consciousness" and that we (meaning the Self) are the creators of these worlds.

They explain that we are really living a dream and that the spiritual worlds are just as real AND illusionary as the physical.

"The cycle of births and deaths is from time immemorial caused by ignorance which displays itself as pleasure and pain and yet is only a dream and unreal."
—Tripura Rahasya XVII 24-26

And Ch'an Master, Sheng-yen, wrote:

"The life of a sentient being is a long dream. Existence only appears to be real. When one finally awakens, or attains Buddhahood, existence is seen for what it is — a sequence of illusions ... You will live in a dream, thinking that it is reality. . . . Because [people] are unaware that their life is unreal, they do not attempt to wake up."


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:22 am 
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Chris, I really like what you are saying. I think we need to be a little bit rigorous.

Of course some of what we perceive is just in our mind... that is why it is called perception. That does not make it any less valuable. When this happens we are interacting with totality just as much as when we are interacting with an oh so external spirit doctor in the Amazon. Being willing to acknowledge that we have a perception which influences how we experience "reality" allows us to be critical thinkers. This is important because people have been "told" by the "spirits", "gods" etc to do terrible, terrible things. Developing an understanding of how perception works is part of the shamanic path.

So, yeah... be careful.

Xbalanque, I could not agree more. Dreams are the key... We are dreams within dreams, whether waking or sleeping. Waking up to that is being a shaman.

MacAoidh, I think the fair answer to your question about whether a loved one is in your mind while a nature spirit is in "reality" is that it depends... the mind can throw up all kinds of holograms... of ANYTHING... AND, by my experience at least, there ARE ALSO worlds and entities truly outside of us. Discerning the difference is not so simple sometimes. It is therefore nice that it does not matter in the end for most things. As Chris said, whether you are looking at the facet of the diamond (or strand of the web) that is you, or that is another entity... you are looking into the diamond anyhow and recognizing it as such and that it has something to teach you... that is what is really important.

As for the spirits and the gods... I think you hit the nail on the head... because cultures have perceptions as do individuals... they are called paradigms. So, one culture calls and perceives a particular being one thing and another calls it another in just the same way as two different people will perceive the same person very differently... especially if they are from different cultures.

In my experience the division between upper and lower worlds is a cultural one, as useful as it may sometimes be. Even though "journeying" has become synonymous with shamanism in much of North America, not all shamanic cultures use it and it is certainly not the most powerful tool in many of those cultures who do use it sometimes. As an example, the spirit doctors of the Amazon are not "journeyed" to and they are not in an upperworld or a lowerworld. They are quite simply multidimensional, including the dimension of time. They are so far out of the band of information we normally perceive that we start by seeing a little part of them and progress slowly to knowing more of them. As we do we learn whole new ways of being in time and space. Some are humanLIKE while others are animalLIKE... holographically anyways... so they might be called Anaconda, or Tarantula... but really they are neither.

Cross cultural investigations help us to sort out what elements of our perception are personal and which are cultural... and therefore help us clear our perception (while still respecting its heritage) so we can see "reality" more clearly. In the final analysis though always remember that EVERYTHING is part of reality... even you and your perception... This is looking at the whole diamond or web from outside. An example of this is Ishwara which is just one name for the diamond... also sometimes known as the Great Spirit.

I am Ishwara

I am all the gods.

I am the coolness on the dark lake bottom
The great migrations on plains
Hammer hitting nail

I am the twinkle in you lovers eye
And the hard stare of street urchins

I am the food you eat
And the waste you expel

When you feel a breeze wash over you
It is my caress

When you see the sun rise
It is my blessing

Star upon star upon star
And icy mountains on moons unknown
Make my body

I am a figment of your imagination

I am your imagination

Your rational mind
Your emotions
The very cells of your body are my own

I am time and space, energy and matter
All these things flavours of one

So, of course I am you
I am everything.

But even better, you are me

And when you feel the desperate ache
You are simply feeling me

Deep inside
______
All the best on the journey to all of you,


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:41 am 
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Jusma wrote:
Shaman of Chaos wrote:
Rachara El wrote:
It is true... nothing is in the mind...everything is outside of it.
I would beg to differ, we can not know reality with out our mind. Reality exists because and as it does because of our mind.


Which was first: egg or chicken?

Evoltion shows the egg came before the chicken =D Thats how I see the world. Sometimes.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:50 am 
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Shaman of Chaos wrote:
Evoltion shows the egg came before the chicken =D Thats how I see the world. Sometimes.


Actually an old poem came into mind, which some resercher thaught to explain origins of existance and it could be examplified into egg.

If an egg could be seen as cosmos, it will give life for an personified god at the same time the stasis of an egg breaks. Limits break lose and from scraches planets are born. Cosmos start to create itself into a form of Milky Way and other galaxies. Life starts to grow from that chicken, it gives life for a very many not only from laid eggs but from it's feathers, peak, step, every move it takes give life for different life forms to fill the planets. Life just emerges from it.

And to me this days science is myth for the future. People always try to explain creation with the words of that time, but is the concept behind the words really so different, if compared to Big Bang. What if words used nowadays are coming from physics, but there is no actual difference with the idea of old myths?


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:44 am 
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Wanderingadept, thanks for the wonderful poem and your thoughts. The poem catches in images what I tried to say in prose.

I believe that the universe is the divine mind playing within itself, creating and destroying whatever it can imagine, testing its own limits, fascinated by its own beauty and power, acting in a complexity that is beyond my own limited ability to comprehend, creating both great beauty and great horror.

Each of us is entirely embedded within that divine mind, but we also have the capacity to conceptualize it as outside ourselves. Today most organzied religions do just that - they place it outside of ourselves. The mystical experience, one version of which is shamanic, helps to heal that perception of the divine as outside ourselves.

Over the millenia, mankind has applied many names to this divine mind - and created immense social and physical structures to honor it. Both the best and the worst of mankind (and of the divine mind) have come out of these structures...great beauty and great horror.

Once we realize that we are a tiny facet of the divine mind at play, then, I feel a personal responsibility not to contribute to the horror even though it too is a part of the divine mind at play. In my tiny way, almost but not quite entirely insignificant, I choose compassion as my guiding principle in life. When I feel fear, envy, greed, anger, lust, etc, I consider the effect that these emotions will have on the world around me - and with as much compassion for that world around me as I can muster, I pull them back. I recognize that these emotions are mine and part of the divine at play within me, but I can, with compassion, choose not to act on them.

To give a concrete example, when confronted with a nasty raging secretive colleague (who is also part of the divine mind at play), I might choose to see that person as deeply wounded and have compassion for that deep woundedness rather than plotting and planning anger-driven revenge. Mind you, defending and protecting myself from that colleague's wound-driven nastiness would also be a very high priority. In this, my guiding and protecting spirits would be very useful, always remembering that compassion is the guiding prinicple in all actions.

Sorting all this out in real life examples is all very very difficult, but when we act with compassion as a guiding prinicple, each of us in our tiny almost insignificant way helps to reduce some of the horror - and that is a good thing.

Chris


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:01 am 
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Hey folks

I can't thank you enough for the amount of good feedback I've had, thanks :D

That's exactly what I mean. I'm not saying that dreams are any less valid that the everyday state of reality in which we live, of course we learn differently from dreams, often they are hidden in metophoric meaning. Then again, if someone had spent their entire life dreaming, then they'd probably have no idea how to understand the 'middle' world in which we live; in the same way that shamanism takes time.

So, when a woman for example hears the voice of God, telling her to kill someone? Is this the result of a bad aspect of us? I read in a book on Celtic Shamanism that Shamans are masters of travelling from one world from another, and determining which voices to listen to etc.
I'm aware that communication with God/Oneness is possible for people, but obviously something different is taking place when a voice says 'I'm God, you must...' etc. Maybe it's a thing of paranoia, created by the person's own perception, but I don't know. Any takes?

Regards and blessings


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:00 am 
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Hmmm. Beside the question, if reality is something that we perceive around or manifestation and interpretation of our mind's movement... What it is to BE, when we close our perception, when we do not journey on, but just be, without visions, hearings or any signals of thought? When we do not give any energy for mind's movement, it's projections.


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