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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Hi there :)
This is a very interesting topic indeed... the test about reality usually comes to me when we talk about the existential 'meeting'. Is meeting between two people possible or we live alone and we all think we meet each other and we exchange ideas, meanings, feelings - but we actually don't. Or, to put in other words, what does a shaman do when a person comes to her/him requesting help in communicating the spirits which they both - the healer and the ''client'' - share. We know that shamans have to be actors. But, apart from that, they have to perform certain effective manipulations with reagard to achieving certain result. Do the shaman work (including performing / acting to make the client believe it is 'real') on the mind of the client, so that this mind cures her/his own reality? Or the shaman itself does the work / manipulates on this reality directly... :)))
If tere is one answer, what would be yours?

love and light


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 Post Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:04 pm 
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Location: Dirty Jerzy
I think Einstein said something along the lines of " reality is just a delusion, albeit a very persistent one," and well their yeah have it.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:54 pm 
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Is it not also possible that our imaginations/dillusions are spirit communicating with us.. metaphorically?

So, if we dream of a passed-away reletive, or see them in front of us having taken drugs or having been subduced to certain magnetic frequencies: could it be entirely down to suggestion or could it be their spirit communicating with us in a metaphorical sence?
This verges on coincidence, kind of like 'just happening' to imagine something' at a particular time, bringing you closer to their spirit/spirit as a whole.

Also, science seems to show that we can send particles back in time, so some ghosts and time slips are most definatly ruptures in the timeline... could this be spirit communicating with us or just random freak events?
That might explain why people have flashbacks in time when communicating with spirits, as if they are showing them what happened to them - basically what I mean is that all memories/thoughts/dillusions come at a particular time for a certain reason, and are generally not random occourances.
So, you might dream of a friend. it might be a memory from your childhood - this would be metaphorical and not neccesserally clear communication, whereas if the friend appeared in your dream to tell you that they had recently died, then the communication would be more direct and not governed so much by how you percieve the message.

I've heard that spirit can make itself known in some very irrational ways (irrational to some minds anyway)


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Wanderingadept wrote:
Chris, I really like what you are saying. I think we need to be a little bit rigorous.

Of course some of what we perceive is just in our mind... that is why it is called perception. That does not make it any less valuable. When this happens we are interacting with totality just as much as when we are interacting with an oh so external spirit doctor in the Amazon. Being willing to acknowledge that we have a perception which influences how we experience "reality" allows us to be critical thinkers. This is important because people have been "told" by the "spirits", "gods" etc to do terrible, terrible things. Developing an understanding of how perception works is part of the shamanic path.

So, yeah... be careful.

Xbalanque, I could not agree more. Dreams are the key... We are dreams within dreams, whether waking or sleeping. Waking up to that is being a shaman.

MacAoidh, I think the fair answer to your question about whether a loved one is in your mind while a nature spirit is in "reality" is that it depends... the mind can throw up all kinds of holograms... of ANYTHING... AND, by my experience at least, there ARE ALSO worlds and entities truly outside of us. Discerning the difference is not so simple sometimes. It is therefore nice that it does not matter in the end for most things. As Chris said, whether you are looking at the facet of the diamond (or strand of the web) that is you, or that is another entity... you are looking into the diamond anyhow and recognizing it as such and that it has something to teach you... that is what is really important.

As for the spirits and the gods... I think you hit the nail on the head... because cultures have perceptions as do individuals... they are called paradigms. So, one culture calls and perceives a particular being one thing and another calls it another in just the same way as two different people will perceive the same person very differently... especially if they are from different cultures.

In my experience the division between upper and lower worlds is a cultural one, as useful as it may sometimes be. Even though "journeying" has become synonymous with shamanism in much of North America, not all shamanic cultures use it and it is certainly not the most powerful tool in many of those cultures who do use it sometimes. As an example, the spirit doctors of the Amazon are not "journeyed" to and they are not in an upperworld or a lowerworld. They are quite simply multidimensional, including the dimension of time. They are so far out of the band of information we normally perceive that we start by seeing a little part of them and progress slowly to knowing more of them. As we do we learn whole new ways of being in time and space. Some are humanLIKE while others are animalLIKE... holographically anyways... so they might be called Anaconda, or Tarantula... but really they are neither.

Cross cultural investigations help us to sort out what elements of our perception are personal and which are cultural... and therefore help us clear our perception (while still respecting its heritage) so we can see "reality" more clearly. In the final analysis though always remember that EVERYTHING is part of reality... even you and your perception... This is looking at the whole diamond or web from outside. An example of this is Ishwara which is just one name for the diamond... also sometimes known as the Great Spirit.

I am Ishwara

I am all the gods.

I am the coolness on the dark lake bottom
The great migrations on plains
Hammer hitting nail

I am the twinkle in you lovers eye
And the hard stare of street urchins

I am the food you eat
And the waste you expel

When you feel a breeze wash over you
It is my caress

When you see the sun rise
It is my blessing

Star upon star upon star
And icy mountains on moons unknown
Make my body

I am a figment of your imagination

I am your imagination

Your rational mind
Your emotions
The very cells of your body are my own

I am time and space, energy and matter
All these things flavours of one

So, of course I am you
I am everything.

But even better, you are me

And when you feel the desperate ache
You are simply feeling me

Deep inside
______
All the best on the journey to all of you,


Thankyou very much for your reply:

what you are saying is that the less we try to influence our reality (including messages from loved ones) - the less likely it is that our own perception is going to influence the message coming through.. although sometimes it may be a bad entity (so I'm told). Mediums have said this: don't think whilst channeling, if you do, it can literally change the meaning. So perhaps being told to kill someone is the result of our own paranoia, or some part of us which wants to do harm. It could be a great number of things


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:03 pm 
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disciple wrote:
Hi there :)
This is a very interesting topic indeed... the test about reality usually comes to me when we talk about the existential 'meeting'. Is meeting between two people possible or we live alone and we all think we meet each other and we exchange ideas, meanings, feelings - but we actually don't. Or, to put in other words, what does a shaman do when a person comes to her/him requesting help in communicating the spirits which they both - the healer and the ''client'' - share. We know that shamans have to be actors. But, apart from that, they have to perform certain effective manipulations with reagard to achieving certain result. Do the shaman work (including performing / acting to make the client believe it is 'real') on the mind of the client, so that this mind cures her/his own reality? Or the shaman itself does the work / manipulates on this reality directly... :)))
If tere is one answer, what would be yours?

love and light


Hmm I have also heard of occasions when people share dreams, my friend had one of these.


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:02 pm 
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MacAoidh wrote:
occasions when people share dreams, my friend had one of these.

I like that. how do you interpret it?

cheers!


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 Post Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:07 pm 
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disciple wrote:
MacAoidh wrote:
occasions when people share dreams, my friend had one of these.

I like that. how do you interpret it?

cheers!


I can't remember what she said happened, she just said that she was in her dream whilst sleeping in the same room as her friend (who she had been with thatnight) and in her dream she was doing stuff (can't remember what) and her friend remembered doing exactly the same in her dream, I remember her saying that it'd happened a few times. Sorry that I can't be more descriptive, I don't speak with her much now, but she's one of the most honest people I know/knew.


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