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 Post subject: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Can anyone offer some information/explanation as to what a two spirit shaman is? And why such a thing would happen?

Regards, Womble


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:53 pm 
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My understanding is that in some North American civilizations different Transgender or Homo/Bisexual individuals were regarded as two-spirit because of the association with male and female in one person.

I happen to be gay myself, and while I definitely have only one soul, each person can kind of be journeyed into and observed metaphorically, and in that way I have a feminine self and masculine self. Everyone does, though, so the term is likely those culture's interpretation of the pronounced significance of sexual orientation and gender minorities.

Typically they were a male who wore female clothing and performed the social functions of women. Warriors would become physically intimate with them, in hopes of boosting their own masculine prowess. That was not their primary role, but it happened.

All this likely varied widely from culture to culture, and much of the nuance is probably left to antiquity. Nowadays, the LGBT community, especially those connected to "First Nations" peoples, identify with the term.

Is that what you were talking about?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Thanks for your reply.

Yes, this is along the line that I am talking about. Is it actually possible to have two spirits?

I guess I'm looking for people's different opinion on it.

Womble.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:02 pm 
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There is only one soul.

But when you journey, you encounter things as a dream, and so you might meet the fem self or the masculine self of a person, just as an inanimate object can be part of someone. But when you come out of the spirit world, there is only one soul.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:17 pm 
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I see.

If a person experiences a death/rebirth situation, is it that person's own spirit that gets reborn, or is it possible that another spirit can be born?

Womble.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:19 am 
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Womble,this is a deep question.And I thought you were just a womble!
Who are we,when death and rebirth occur to us?Are we still the same spirit?
Furthermore,can a person change so much,that they become someone else?
Are we today,who we were yesterday?Or many years ago?
I believe that at the deepest level,the soul remains the same.By soul,I refer here to the very essence of our being.But,I could be wrong...
Has to having two spirits,psychiatrists call it schizophrenia.So we have to clarify it a little .A person`s mind or personality can be divided into sub personalities.If these sub personalities fight with one another,there would be trouble or even mental illness.Work would have to be done to integrate the fragmented self.Another situation is,when a person is under the influence of two spirits,at the same time,or can even be possessed by entities.If the entities are in agreement,one would be fine.But,if there is battle between them,and the individual is being used as the battle field of spirits,one would get sick and confused.As to gender,each person is predominantly male spirit or female spirit,regardless of the body they are in.However,we all reincarnate sometimes as male and sometimes as female.A person has only one soul or spirit.This spirit can suffer by being split or fragmented,or by being under the influence of several entities.
I hope this helps with the issue. The Sage/Oracle


Last edited by oracledreamhealer on Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:44 am 
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Is it possible that a person could be possessed by helping entities? Entities with good intentions that enter someone to help them? Who work with the person that they have entered? And if this/these entities are of a different gender, that person could take on mild aspects of that gender?

Womble.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:05 am 
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You have a contract with the entity/entities, who work with you.So,you are not possessed.You allow the entities in.It is done with your permission.If an entity is with you against your will,you would have to do a ritual to exorcise it.It is not easy to get rid of entities,once they attach themselves to you.So,you have to be clear in your mind:what kind of beings you are willing to associate with?what kind of energies and qualities they must have?Also,you have to decide,what type of people and entities you don`t want to have in your life.It is called-discernment.
As to gender influences-yes,if you identify with an entity,you may feel their feelings and share their inclinations.But not to the extent that it would change your sexual orientation.
my blog on Google:oracledreamhealer-as one word.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 4:58 am 
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A new line of enquiry that I would like to put forward to all members ...

The difference between a spirit possession as oppose to an entity attachment ... what would the difference in the feeling be between the two?

Womble.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:58 pm 
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resonantD wrote:
There is only one soul.

But when you journey, you encounter things as a dream, and so you might meet the fem self or the masculine self of a person, just as an inanimate object can be part of someone. But when you come out of the spirit world, there is only one soul.


Quite a sweeping statement! Not sure that everyone would agree. For example, many Eurasian (Siberian, Buryat, Mongol) shamans believe in 3 souls, some Inuit believe in 5 etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:11 am 
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Womble wrote:
A new line of enquiry that I would like to put forward to all members ...

The difference between a spirit possession as oppose to an entity attachment ... what would the difference in the feeling be between the two?

Womble.


Degree of original personality left to make independent decisions. An intrusion or entity attached may start to affect certain thought processes and actions. A full possession implies that the entire capability of independent decision making has been compromised and pushed out of the way. This would also imply a great deal of soul loss. I've never come across anyone like that but it is reasoned that some multiple personality disorders are evidence of this. I honestly can't say having never worked with anyone on a one to one basis like this.

A two spirit shaman is also (as well as the gender considerations) understood to have both his/her own soul plus that of an ancestral shaman. Such people were often recognised early on in life by their community or a shaman by the power, memories and wisdom they carried which were clearly not entirely their own.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:42 am 
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Thanks Forest Child for your input ... it's very helpful. Over the past couple of days during this tread, a clearer picture of what I need to do next has come to me. I may get intouch with you Forest Child if I feel I need to.

I'm going to bow out now. Thanks everyone for your input.

With best wishes.

Womble.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:30 am 
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You are welcome to contact me. Happy to help.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Dear Womble,

I would like to expound a little on the two spirit tradition here as I don't feel it was accurately protrayed. There is a great documentary called 'Two Spirit' that I feel does a great job. But let me talk further about it's significance. So far what I saw posted was more derogatory then beneficial.

In shamanic terms, and you will see this also in Tibetan Buddhist teachings, to be a shaman is to be able to be a vessel to the divine energies, or creator's energies. Most indigenous people often saw creator as being of both genders or androgynous, then broken down into Grandfather/Grandmother, or similiar type of male/female deities and on and on an on. Most of our heterosexual couterparts more strongly identified as being male or female, they reflected their gender in alignment with their sex assignment, and so would have to go through an in initiatory process to break down this unilateral identity such that they could carry the opposite gender without wreaking internal confusion.

The two spirit, however, was born with an ability to be both genders and had an intuitive understanding of both male and female genders within themselves. They might cross dress, many tribes did require they pick a gender, but not all. Some might be gay, some might be straight, although most were what we would call gay. They were actually quite priviledged in their communities. The Dine story is one where there was a great war between man and woman and to have peace, man picked one side of the river and the woman the other. Spirit then created the two spirit who could swim across the river and live in both words, therefore being the diplomat, the peacemaker, the bridgemaker. Many tribes felt that the two spirit was wise, a natural healer, counselor, parent to children, leader, and capable of understanding both the roles and subsequent burdens of the men and women in their tribe, such that they could help the one side understand the other. They often held positions of authority, were given specific priviledges, could be with either men or women, and had a higher quality of life. To be a two spirit was of great honor.

I hold this understanding close to me. This is how I carry these energies. I never understood how I could feel so strongly male in a females body, but not want to have a sex change, and as I got older, I became more comfortable with my female side. I now switch when I wish. I have many lesbian friends who recognize within themselves a great capacity to cook a fine meal and fix your car. We carry both capacities and then choose which one we are most called to.

The two spirit often did not have to go through the same initiations as their heterosexual counterparts to obtain the right to ceremony and ritual. Although that has not been the case for me, but for reasons too much to go into detail here. I hope this helps in your understanding of the two spirit tradition. Maledoma Some also has an interesting article on 'the guardians of the gate' that I think would be helpful to you as well.

I wish you well in your studies.

Pen


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 Post subject: Re: Two Spirit Shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:29 am 
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Forest Child wrote:
Quite a sweeping statement! Not sure that everyone would agree. For example, many Eurasian (Siberian, Buryat, Mongol) shamans believe in 3 souls, some Inuit believe in 5 etc.


How can a description of one thing be a sweeping statement?

Ok, then. Which is it? How many are there ACTUALLY? Are we to just count up however many there seem to be described, counting those that seem to be depictions of the same thing as one? Are we to say that to one person there are three but to another there are five and both are equally true "to them"? Asserting that some peoples can see more than others?

Or can we say that a person, viewed in non-ordinary reality, may seem to be many different sets of aspects, which make themselves known as a unit based on the shaman's understanding?


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