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 Post subject: Traditional indegenous shaman
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:42 am 
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Please help me understand the core values of this type of shaman vs the contemporary/neo shaman?


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:44 am 
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The differences are:

A traditional shaman is chosen by the spirits and for this reason only takes a limited number of apprentices. The core shaman will take as many students as possible regardless of the fact they may have not been callled by the spirits. The only requirement is that you can afford his fee.

The reason a trad shaman has a limited number of students is that he/she passes some of his power to his/her students. Imagine a core shaman passing power to 30 students every so often, they would be depleted of power in no time.

A trad shaman can take years to train and normally pass through 3 initiations. Most core shaman courses claim they can train you in up to 2 years.

A core shaman claims soul retrieval is common and safe, a trad says these are rare and are very dangerous, shamans have been known to die while soul retrieving.

A trad shaman`s main healing is fighting sorcerers, while a core shaman seems to be soul or power animal retrieval.

I cannot find power animal retrieval in trad shamanism, so I believe it may have been invented by Michael Harner or it is in a tradition I have not studied.

A trad shaman normally gets his calling by the so-called shamans sickness, which is normally life threatening, I have not heard of this in core shamanism.

A trad shaman cannot heal everything and if the illness is not spiritual he will refer the patient to the doctor. They normally perform a diagnosis to see if the illness is spiritual, I have never seen a core shaman do this.

Journeying is extremely complex and some shamans cannot do it. Core shamans believe anyone can journey and you can learn this at a weekend workshop.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:21 pm 
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Location: Cedar Park, TX 78613
Barry Barry Barry


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:54 pm 
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thanks much Barry!


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:01 pm 
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barry wrote:
A trad shaman`s main healing is fighting sorcerers,


I would disagree with that as a general statement about traditional shamans. Maybe that is the approach of some. The shamans that I've worked with focus on enlightenment and balance as the main healing. In that respect you more frequently see the patient perhaps fighting with him/herself against the healing than you find the shaman needing to "fight" a sorcerer.


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 Post subject: Re: Traditional indegenous shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:17 pm 
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Riff wrote:
Please help me understand the core values of this type of shaman vs the contemporary/neo shaman?


Do you mean indigenous shaman of the past vs western core shamanic practitioners today or indigenous shamans today vs western core shamanic practitioners today? If its the latter . . .

It really depends where in the world and what culure the shaman/Nagual/Boo/Sangoma/Maribou Man etc comes from. Its impossible to give a single answer really.

Contemporary Core Shamanism came about mostly through people like Michael Harner, Alberto Villoldo and Jonathan Horowitz. They identified that there were certain core traits which ran parallel in all shamanic traditions, the key of these was the shamanic journey.

The core values, I guess you would have to ask different native shamans.

Bhola Nath Banstola is a Nepalese (Jhankri) Shaman. We discussed similar things last year when he visited the UK. He explained that for his culture, love of all things was the most important fundamental, everything else stemmed from that. http://www.nepalese.it/indexE.htm

Mi-Shell Jessen is a shaman/healer who spans both worlds. Her heritage is Siberian (Uranshai) 1st Nation and Gypsy. I don't think she is a member here yet but I'll invite her over when she gets back from Germany and she can speak for herself. http://www.bearpawjewellery.com/shamanic.html.

When you ask about core values, the key component for all shamans and practitioners the world over, is to help others through intervention via the spirit realms. Each culture has its own values, customs, beliefs and traits but when it boils down to it its all about working with the spirits to assist in this world.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:15 pm 
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
I think there are many different "core values" because there are many different traditions around, having people that can be namend "shaman".

Can you elaborate your question a bit more?


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:54 pm
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Location: Durango / Ignacio, Colorado
barry wrote:
The differences are:


Barry,

While we could hack around with a few, I think the words you wrote offer an excellent differentiation.

Blessings,
~Nick


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:17 am 
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Location: France
There are Core Shamans and there are Core Shamans.

Some are chosen by the spirits, others are not.

Some give workshops, some do not. Those who do may give only one (good one) in there life while other do on a regular basis. Some of the classes can be big, while others are small and for a selected few.
Some do not give workshops but have apprentices.

Some only heal. Some organise, usually for free, drumming and healing circles or focus on healing the land, the earth, cleaning pollution, both on the inside as on the outside.

Some ask for fees, some do not - and those that do have different rates, from a lot to very little to practically nothing.

Some combine CS with a traditional path.

Some have no power, while others are loaded.

I combine my native European (Germanic) with the techniques I've learned from teachers like Ingerman and others. I have been called (and still am) by the spirits, by my ancestors. I ask no fee for healing these days and asked very little in the past. I give workshops for free, but not to whomever.

I've waited (and trained) for ten years before I did my first Soul Retrieval. I learned from Sandra Ingerman. She does NOT say it's safe.

Core Shamanic Healing is much more than Soul or 'Power Animal' Retrieval. It's that ... and also things like plant work, psychompomp, divination, extraction, working with spirits of the land, ancestors, descendants, etc. all in combination.

There are Core Shamans and there are Core Shamans.

Some are good and some are bad.

We should more be prudent when looking for clean distinctions of black and white.
I can meet a Core Shamanist who has been called by the Spirits, who went to some very powerfull initionary crisis, almost dying, who does not say it's safe, does not ask for fees and has been in training for ten years in a row, etc, etc.


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:50 pm 
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Beautifully put glasdraoi.


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:41 pm 
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Very well put Barry and Glasdraoi

well i think that some shamans are chosen by the spirits [ through illness, whatever,] and some who hear and answer the calling.

there is no important difference between these two ways and both could lead you to become a traditional shaman.

==================================================

you all probably know examples of people who were chosen by the spirits but here is an example of one who heard the calling.

in the time of Castenada [castenada later proved to be a fake], a guy whose name i cant recall was inspired by the story of castaneda and took peyote, he had a vision which baffled him so he went to a traditional shaman and told him what he saw,
the shaman was amazed because he beleived this was a calling to be a shaman of some kind and asked the guy if he would like to become his apprentice.


==================================================

i personally caught a life threatening disease when visiting a family member when i was very young, a disease which turned my eyes black and caused me to cry tears of blood, the doctors were very worried it would spread to my brain and kill me
but i completely recovered, i was too young to remember so i do not know if it had anything to do with spirits.

i later caught glandular fever for 2 years and was cured by a welsh wool measurer.

===================================================
i dont know wether either of these stories indicate a shaman who was chosen by spirit, but frankly i dont care, i am a shaman and i dont know if i am core or trad because i never had a human teacher.

so maybe you could draw a line but i think that if the shaman can heal you then he is your true shaman , core or trad.

StoneCrow....

P.S i do not want to start an argument over the truth or false of castenedas books..


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:31 pm 
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barry wrote:

I cannot find power animal retrieval in traditional shamanism, so I believe it may have been invented by Michael Harner or it is in a tradition I have not studied.




Actually, traditional Northwest Coast Indian shamans did practice this. I myself am Chinook Indian and the Tahmanawas (totem animal) was (and is) at the center of our shamanic and spiritual practices.

As a traditionally apprenticed shaman, I commend you Barry on your information - very well done.


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:51 am 
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Location: London
Thank you Shaman _Cougar for explaining where power animal retrieval comes from. I have not studied the Northwest Coast tradition. I have been wondering for some time where that healing method came from as I just could not find it.


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