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 Post subject: the otherlands connection
 Post Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
lots and lots and lots of people seem to seek out shamanism as some sort of American Indian religion or spirituality. and just as many people seem to think that the only true path to Spirit is to Amerindian on up. and too some Native folks like to tell a somewhat popular modern Indian myth of how the “white man” will come to the Indians for spiritual guidance, which seems to buy into this same “only true source” kind of idea. but how can there be only one path to Spirit? how can there be only one path to shamanic practice?

it seems to me that for many people there is a line of shamanisms and magics that supposedly ended during the Christian conversion times. certainly the force of that conversion shoved these things underground. but did they completely die away? no. but they did cease to flourish in the light of day.

in Europe the pre-Christian spiritualities thereof are often referred to by various terms all of which are something similar to “the Old Beliefs”. this is the true European connection; it is animistic, polytheistic, and shamanistic. it is magical. and it is singing itself back into life. it sings itself into being with every person who journeys to upper world teachers and finds themselves in the company of gods known from the old lands.

there are other lands too. and other cultures. shamanically inclined people are gaining spirit teachers from all these places. all these places are leaving their ancient cultural mark on this new “neo” shamanism. this is not a people driven movement, except as people are woven in the wyrd and are of spirit too. for spirit drives this thing, this thing we call shamanism.

to my way of thinking modern shamanism is now as much or more closely rooted in pre-Christian Old World beliefs than it is to the medicines of indigenous NDN peoples whom the early founders of modern shamanism interacted and studied with. it was good to have that springboard, but it’s not what modern shamanism now is. or at least far, far from being the all of what it is. which isn’t to disregard or to disrespect the elders or medicine people of those whose ancestry is rooted tens of thousands of years into the Americas. but rather it is to say that shamanism is becoming of its own guidance. that it is becoming from the guidance of the spirits involved in it’s modern awakening. it is a reaching out from those spirits to a modern fertile ground. what is going on now is as often a restoration, revival, and renewal of shamanisms thought lost for millennia as it is anything borrowed from indigenous folk. if not more, depending on who is doing the practicing. shamanisms thought lost entirely were often just hidden and are now being recovered through research as well as people and spirit interaction. shamanisms thought lost entirely are being reborn through spirit help. there is no copyright on the practice. there is no ownership to it. it is itself and what it is is as a thing of spirit that is choosing for itself what to be and how to become.

frith and bliss
Crowfuzz


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:24 am 
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This matter is so tricky that I feel like speaking out here.

Lets start calmly:
There's also people creating 'new' paths. Some use the Silmarillion as a general blueprint for their work. Others do create things like Metistsa and Toteg Tribe.

Some also take elements from their respective ancestral cultures, and since they themselves are of different origins (even here in Europe people can have grandparents of four different cultures), they mix them up.

There's genetic ancestry, cultural ancestry and spiritual ancestry.
I'm genetically Dutch. (West Germanic). I've always had the call from the Old Ones (Wodan and all, the Batavi, etc). But Spinoza made big impression on me as well. He's a Jew. Meister Eckhart got into my life too. He's a Christian. I also have some family in Samiland, even if the relation is remote, yet they did make an impression on me and helped shape my spirit. And now I have a strong link with Finno Ugric culture.

Being a sort of shamanic germano-celtic european, I still bumped into Buddha and Krishna and I know that I can't deny their influence in my life neither. They are spiritual ancestors. And I can't forget Kokopelli. It's not my fault; he just came. Doesn't make me a thief if I put his image on my altar.

It's a very complex question.
Playing Indian I don't like and I frown when I see others do it. Yet I do believe that they have the inherent right to do so if they want.
Yet I also know that a lack of respect and total misrepresentation of Native cultures worldwide can lead to the further demise of these cultures.

So can you tell me the answer? What do we do with the concept of Cultural Integrity?

I know of several 'Nordic' shamanists and pagans, who are constantly defining what is really Germanic culture or what the word Heathen really means. Yet most of them are from the States (not at all from a Germanic country) and their bookish analysis are leaking with one-sided points of view.

They strive for Purity and yet deform what they seek. They condemn those who they consider to be be playing around in a culture that isn't theirs, saying that doing so destroys the native culture - yet they do not hestitate to do the same with native European cultures.

I've been 'Heiden' all my life. I'm 39. When I grew up the word Heiden (Heathen), meant "those who are not christian". Could be a Witch (Heks) could be an ancient Slav or Pre-christian Ostrogoth, could be a Zulu.

Nowadays the Nordic community, mostly American and so extremely active on the Net, has decided that the Word Heathen means something else. They've come into European culture and decided what the terms and practicies of this culture is supposed to be. Looks like a form of colonialism to me.
If I call on the Four directions then I'm not really Germanic according to some... Of course the guy from Arkansas who says so is the genuine article....
I've even seen Americans judging someone like Freya Aswinn (who's Dutch, a native germanic woman) being a "Cultural rapist", for having a Heiden practice mixed with ceremonial magic.
Huh?

So where's purity? When is a culture really pure? How can we follow our ancestor's path?
I understand it is hard for Americans, being cut off, in time and space, from the old cultures that spawned them, but sometimes the tendencies go too far.

I would like to find a situation where people can practice what they like, what attracts them, without destroying a culture.

I hope this text makes any sense. I wanted to say this for a long long time.

I do not like to sing Navajo songs and do sweatlodge ceremonies, because it makes me feel like an intruder, but I will defend the right of anyone on this planet excercising the culture they want, even if it genetically isn't theirs - as long as their is no harm.
And the crux lies there: when is it really harm?


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 Post Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:08 am 
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howdy Glasdraoi,
always a pleasure to see one of your posts. I appreciate your responding. this is a tricky matter. in your post at times I see a questioning line of thought. at others I feel that we are something in agreement. and still others we seem to have different perspectives. this would be an excellent coffee talk, but as we’re doing the net thing I’ll try to reply as I can. hopefully the conversation will continue from there. and I apologize for the length, really, I do.
:]

I’ve no idea who the Metistsa and Toteg Tribes are, if you’d care to share. I googled it but came up blank. as for the Sillmarillion, J. R. R. Tolkien's vision moved a lot of people. there’s nothing wrong or incorrect from a shamanic POV of diving into a work of fiction.

“Some also take elements from their respective ancestral cultures, and since they themselves are of different origins (even here in Europe people can have grandparents of four different cultures), they mix them up.”

and some take the path that calls the most strongly too them. while at the same time honoring all of their ancestry.

some people see every spirit of importance that enters there life as a spirit that they need to attach too. I don’t feel that way. in my practice I’ve met and worked with some pretty heavy duty spirits but they don’t all end up on my alter. in fact, hardly any of them do. though I may honor them after we’ve worked together for that effort. I’m of the opinion that there really are very few “shamans” and so spirits reach out to us to work for them, but that doesn’t’ make every spirit our best friend and teacher. IMO. honored allies, I can go with that. though I’ve also encountered strong spirits whom I know to be other’s guides that my main guides have interceded to lead me away from. or even set limits as to how much they desired me to be available there.

“There's genetic ancestry, cultural ancestry and spiritual ancestry.”

there are spirits of place as well. which I’m sure that you know. the spirits of a place can call in an ancestral to the land sort of way. honoring the vettir is important to many cultures I’m sure. certainly the Norwegians never gave it up, even after the conversion. shamanically speaking I feel that it’s important to any practice to work with, or at least seek out friendly relations with, the local spirits of the land.

“I'm genetically Dutch. (West Germanic). I've always had the call from the Old Ones (Wodan and all, the Batavi, etc). But Spinoza made big impression on me as well. He's a Jew. Meister Eckhart got into my life too. He's a Christian. I also have some family in Samiland, even if the relation is remote, yet they did make an impression on me and helped shape my spirit. And now I have a strong link with Finno Ugric culture.”

Glasdraoi, not everyone is meant, or able, or inclined, or what have you, to a specifically definable shamanic path. and that’s just fine. as I said in my earlier post it is the spirits who are shaping this thing we call shamanism. but some people are immersing themselves in specifically definable shamanic paths. that is Spirit led as well.

and even when a person does follow a certain culturally oriented path that doesn’t mean that they cast off the rest of who they are. my paternal grandmother was a Mohegan Indian, a Native American. in my healing journeys I’ve gone back to times when that tribe was strong and intact. I’ve interacted and been blessed by their mountain goddess. and some of the animal spirits of that tribe are among those I call my spirit friends. but honoring this ancestry and doing journey work to and about it doesn’t change my way of shamanism from a Nordic emphasis to an Indian form.

“Being a sort of shamanic germano-celtic european, I still bumped into Buddha and Krishna and I know that I can't deny their influence in my life neither. They are spiritual ancestors. And I can't forget Kokopelli. It's not my fault; he just came. Doesn't make me a thief if I put his image on my altar.”

he gets around a bit that Kokopelli, he’s a wanderer, and he likes his image seen. or such is my awareness of him.

“It's a very complex question.”

yeppers, it is. and like most such questions it has complex ponderings about it. and perhaps no firm answers as it’s likely a person to person thing.

“Playing Indian I don't like and I frown when I see others do it. Yet I do believe that they have the inherent right to do so if they want.”

now that depends, actually. if posers are leading Indian ceremonies and claiming a line of teachers that they don’t have then it’s a problem. if a person is doing a self-taught pan-Indian type of spirituality then it’s not a problem. in the former they are actively acting in disrespect. in the latter they are seeking an earth-based spirituality that is either the only version they are aware of, or the one that truly calls to them.

“Yet I also know that a lack of respect and total misrepresentation of Native cultures worldwide can lead to the further demise of these cultures.”

I agree.

“So can you tell me the answer? What do we do with the concept of Cultural Integrity?”

the best we can.

“I know of several 'Nordic' shamanists and pagans, who are constantly defining what is really Germanic culture or what the word Heathen really means. Yet most of them are from the States (not at all from a Germanic country) and their bookish analysis are leaking with one-sided points of view.”

actually it can be argued that the US is a Germanic culture, of sorts. much of what a culture is is in the language. English is a Teutonic based language. the core customs that were brought to the US were brought there by Europeans. Northern European culture as a base for modern American culture is an argument that can be made. of course the US isn’t purely a European based culture, but neither is Europe anymore.

these people you speak of, myself included, are also generally ancestrally descended from people of Northern Europe or the Northern Isles. there is a concept that you may have run across, the Northern Folk Soul. this phenomena is singing to us who can hear it. it’s singing to us of all that we are and all that our ancestors have been. it’s singing modern Heathenry into life. and it’s singing seidr practice into being as well.

what I see as the most difficult thing here is the broad use of terms like “Germanic” or “Nordic”. at one time most people who came to Asatru were doing a pen-Germanic/Nordic/Anglo-Saxon seeking. this was a pretty eclectic way of looking at the Northern Traditions. in more recent years though people are tending to focus on one of those possibilities on the many branched tree that is Modern Heathenry. Forn Sed is one of those branches; possibly even the trunk, but it doesn’t exclude the rest.

“They strive for Purity and yet deform what they seek. They condemn those who they consider to be be playing around in a culture that isn't theirs, saying that doing so destroys the native culture - yet they do not hestitate to do the same with native European cultures.”

there are some large differences in the way an American Asatruar probably looks at Heathenry and the way a Norwegian Forn Sed person probably does. chief among those being that American Heathens tend to be pretty loud about the gods. Forn Sedr, at least those I know, are quiet about the gods and focus on the vettir.

I can’t really address more than that without specific examples of what you are speaking to.

“I've been 'Heiden' all my life. I'm 39. When I grew up the word Heiden (Heathen), meant "those who are not christian". Could be a Witch (Heks) could be an ancient Slav or Pre-christian Ostrogoth, could be a Zulu.”

yep, that’s the dictionary definition. the times they be a changing. all movements have the right to self-name. for us taking Heathen which originated as a derogatory name to those barbarian folks on the heath, is our way of claiming it as something of worth and value.

“Nowadays the Nordic community, mostly American and so extremely active on the Net, has decided that the Word Heathen means something else. They've come into European culture and decided what the terms and practicies of this culture is supposed to be. Looks like a form of colonialism to me.”

I see, and what if we were talking about black Americans wishing to reclaim something of African culture? what then? would you feel that was colonialism? are those of European descent to be denied the ways of our ancestors simply because somewhere along the line some of them migrated? migrating was a common thing in the Scandinavian lands. in Iceland and Greenland when the populace grew too large people drew straws as to who would have to seek land elsewhere. people of Scandinavian descent coming to America was inevitable.

the net has been a blessing to those like me. do you have any idea how large America is? without the net we’d still be scattered solitaries, most of us. it brings us together and allows us to converse and to share. it lets us wax philosophic. it lets us know that we aren’t alone.

I’ve always felt the call of the old gods, but until I went online I thought that I was alone in honoring them. like you I’ve felt this call since I was a child. many who come to Heathenry are like that. are we less than you simply because that call came an ocean away from yours? are we to be denied our ancestry because you don’t like how we honor it?

“If I call on the Four directions then I'm not really Germanic according to some... Of course the guy from Arkansas who says so is the genuine article....”

and you are expecting agreement of some sort? not between you and I, that is, but amongst the fractious folks that are simmering and seething together to brew this old ways made new way of faith and spirituality? there is a faction of Heathenry that feels all things seidr need to be let sit a few more generations. and those folks are loud too. really loud, actually. and they would abhor calling the quarters as Wiccan influenced. however, Calling the quarters and honoring the Dwarven Ones is very powerful, and to me more Heathen seeming than not.

the guy from Arkansas has worked hard at his craft to be seen as he is.

“I've even seen Americans judging someone like Freya Aswinn (who's Dutch, a native germanic woman) being a "Cultural rapist", for having a Heiden practice mixed with ceremonial magic.
Huh?”


I’ve encountered those who dislike Freya Aswynn. and many more who think highly of her. along with her other accomplishments she’s an elder of the Troth, a worldwide organization that’s mostly located in the US.

“So where's purity? When is a culture really pure? How can we follow our ancestor's path?”

journeying to our ancestors and asking them is a good start. journeying to our gods and asking them is another step there.

you mentioned above all these many influences that you have in your practice. that’s fine. at least by me it’s fine. however I also hold a view that the deeper well is best found by looking into it for a long time. if a person is skipping along looking briefly at every lake, stream, and mud puddle then they will find a thing that is scattered.

“I understand it is hard for Americans, being cut off, in time and space, from the old cultures that spawned them, but sometimes the tendencies go too far.”

yes. sometimes. but . . . can you honestly tell me that there are not European born people who sometimes go to far? can you truly say that only people in the US push in ways that you don’t like?

“I would like to find a situation where people can practice what they like, what attracts them, without destroying a culture.”

then look for those ingredients that are “pure”; honor, integrity, intelligent use, studiousness, a clear connection to spirit, a clear intent, a good heart, care of the culture, and good spirits.

however if what you are saying is that you wish to see eclectic practice more respected . . . then use that same formula.

ultimately we come to shamanism as a way of connecting with spirits and seeking change. in this practice we seek out animal spirit allies and upper world teachers. these beings will guide us, if we ask and they feel it’s appropriate.

“I hope this text makes any sense. I wanted to say this for a long long time.”

pretty much. maybe. it seems to me that you are saying that you love your culture, the culture of your birth. yet you do not want to be restrained by that. that along the way in your life and practice you’ve made some eclectic allies and you like them. and that you don’t think it’s fair for people to judge you for that. especially not wannabe Americans who aren’t really Germanic anyway.

Glasdraoi, it’s worth pointing out here that perhaps the reason American Asatruar/Heathens are so one culture specific is because we are not in the old lands.

“I do not like to sing Navajo songs and do sweatlodge ceremonies, because it makes me feel like an intruder, but I will defend the right of anyone on this planet excercising the culture they want, even if it genetically isn't theirs - as long as their is no harm.
And the crux lies there: when is it really harm?”


I’ve been to sweat lodge, not Dine though. Dine is the word that the Navajo use for themselves.

here’s the thing, without ancestry or initiation then what is it that a person who is doing Indian ceremony really connecting to? and how can someone who doesn’t *know* just assume that a casual desire to do a thing is enough reason? the really, really cool thing about Native American ceremonies is that they are still community oriented and enacted. they are for *that* community.

it’s pretty common for the real deal teachers of the Indian ways to tell seekers to look to their own ancestral roots. my boy was a firekeeper for an old Medicine guy one summer. but there was never any doubt of who my son's gods are, my son knew going in and the old man made sure it stayed that way.

frith,
Crowfuzz


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:40 pm 
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Hey Crowfuzz,
yep that was a long one :D

how am I ever going to respond to that.... :shock:

well... It's my own fault. My story was long and confusing. Kind of wrote it too quick.

I guess what has been bothering me for some time, and I just had to get it off my chest... (wrote it quicker than I could think. :? ...), was that being Germanic (and shamanic) all my life, I felt that lately the borders of germanic faith were more and more being dictated by voices from America. And some of these voices were very loud, unreasonble, often quite racist and intolerant.

Yet... I know of many Asatruar, Theodists, etc, who are tolerant, freethinking, not racist and not inclined on dictating to others (and also europeans) what Germanic culture really is like. Perhaps the first group is very small, but o so loud.

So I wasn't trying to put you all on the same list.
I do think though that a lot of Europeans are thinking like me.

I wouldn't want to tell you, or any other that you are not Germanic and cannot define Germanic culture for yourself. The problem lies in the fact that the American definition becomes the definition. And I'm resisting that.

I have Sami family, but also Norwegian, I have German friends and often go around in Holland, I'm of West- Frisian descent. I just know that going around the sacred places of Holland, Friesland , Scandinavia, Germany, and speaking to some people there who are still connected to the old ways and to the land, that the American vision of Germanic spirtituality is good, but not the one. Only simply the American one. This is GOOD. American Germanic spirituality is good. But let's just remember that is a path, not the. This is often forgotten.

Please go on and do the thing that you have to do. I think most of you people do a good job.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:44 pm 
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howdy Glasdroi!
yep, it was looooooong! *blush*

it's worth pointing out that while Americans are often broad-brushed as one large culture, we're really not. we're a myriad of sub-cultures. even as small as Heathenry is here, percentage wise, it still varies greatly around the country. so i cannot agree that the American version is just one version as there are actually several views on Heathenry in the US. i feel this same way about European views on Heathenry. Europe is not one large culture, there are differences there too. so, that said i do agree that the European versions of Heathenry are not less than the American ones.

i've seen the other side of this conversation too, BTW. i have seen overbearing know it all Truar-Americans bashing Europeans. (i'm not saying that you're bashing Americans, just that i have seen the kinds of things which may have prompted your posts.)

i've been fortunate to frequent places online where Heathen folk from around the world have participated and been welcome. it's a better mix, to my thinking, than all one or the other.

frith,
Crowfuzz


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 Post Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:09 am 
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Don't blush,
I like long posts (when they make sense, and yours does btw).

I'd like to know about some more tolerant Germanic forums, because part of my deception comes from conversing with the wrong types; you know those who literally say that you have to commit suicide and die for defending the idea that all that is on our planet is inherently sacred (I'm not kidding).

I'm on the Helvegr forum (they're a bit controversial, because they deal predominantly with the Rökkr, or shadows, Hela and Hela's extended family), they're very shamanic and very open minded and cool. There's as much respect for the Rökkr as for the Vanir and Asir there. I'm more Vanic based, but I like their company.

A secret: I wouldn't ever be American bashing, that would be conjugal violence.... my wife's American (french-american). One of the reasons I have a faint heart for eclecticism. Our family is totally eclectic. Dutch-French-American. Not forgetting the other cultures who are part also of the family, by various links (jewish, italian, norwegian, gabonese) LOL Talking about the Melting Pot!

I used to be very Folkish, semi-hard line Germanic, while always pacific, but I have a natural tendency to speak up, and often way too loud when I find someone being intolerant, racist etc.

I guess one of the things I have to learn is to mind my own bussiness and follow my own tracks without screaming boody murder everytime I bump into the next anger based individual who uses the internet for stirring up hate.

Nice talking to you Crowfuzz,

glasdraoi[/list]


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:17 am 
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howdy Glasdroi,
i'm sorry that it's taken me so long to return to this conversation.

it occurs to me that one of the communication problems you may be reacting to with the word "Heathen" capitol H) is likely as yours is a purer Germanic tongue that Heathen and Pagan are probably not both in your language. Pagan being the Latin version of Heathen, of course. in the US Pagan is such a broad umbrella term that it doesn't even mean polytheistic. which is of course an essential qualifier for those who are. Americans also tend to be rather faith obsessed. the kind of eclecticim that you were describing earlier with a lot of influences as part of your faith would be considered neo-Paganism. and while it would be fair to term modern Asatruar as neo-Heathens. most would pitch a fit over it. so i think the problem with the word "Heathen" as we are addressing it here is as much a translation problem as a cultueral one.

Quote:
"I'd like to know about some more tolerant Germanic forums, because part of my deception comes from conversing with the wrong types; you know those who literally say that you have to commit suicide and die for defending the idea that all that is on our planet is inherently sacred (I'm not kidding)."


here's one, the Asatru & Northern Heathenry board at Beliefnet;

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=314

you might also consider joining the Troth, i think that the forum there is members only. which costs a little something every year and provides a fine magazine for the money along with access to the members parts of the site. but there was talk of having some parts open to the public. i honestly don't know if that ever happened.

http://www.thetroth.org/

"I'm on the Helvegr forum (they're a bit controversial, because they deal predominantly with the Rökkr, or shadows, Hela and Hela's extended family), they're very shamanic and very open minded and cool. There's as much respect for the Rökkr as for the Vanir and Asir there. I'm more Vanic based, but I like their company."

Beliefnet also has a seidr and spae board, which may suit you despite your dislike of the term seidr;

http://community.beliefnet.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=318

shamanism i get. but i think the controversy around honoring the Jotunar is well deserved. and complicated. i can't say that i have a hard stand on the thing, but i'm pondering.

i'd write more and expound and go on and babble, but it's horribly late and i must get off to bed. i have enjoyed speaking with you.

frith & bliss,
Crowfuzz


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:47 pm 
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Good meaty stuff! :D

I don't have the background knowledge to discuss the heritages & traditions mentioned at length, but I do have this to contribute FWIW: I didn't know what shamanism was until I got called.

Seriously - I'd heard the word, seem to recall I thought it was some sort of indigenous thing, had you asked me for a word-association, I'd have said "witch doctor"!

Long story short, I got called in a dream by a shaman who had passed over, and then got busy learning (first from humans, then from Spirit in short order) and it was like this massive download, all this stuff from my pre-birth experiences, stuff from ancestors.. all sorts.

All that aside, for me it means that shamanic practice, at its root of being a human who directly interacts with Spirit, is a human inheritance, something that Spirit chooses to give us, and which cannot therefore be shoehorned into any one nation's pattern to the cost of all other forms.

Imagine applying that same rule to music, to sewing or cooking or any other human endeavour - it's absurd IMO! :)

Though with that said, I would hope that anyone who does commit to a tradition does so sincerely, as I think that's the way to get the quickest results - imagine trying to walk to the next town, but you keep going back to the starting point, and trying a different route?

It would have value in itself, but you may never get to your intended destination...

Just my musings! :D


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 8:13 am 
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crowfuzz wrote:

Beliefnet also has a seidr and spae board, which may suit you despite your dislike of the term seidr;

Crowfuzz



Well... I'm trying out the 'quote' thingy on this board... I don't know if it comes out well :?

Concerning me disliking the term Seidr: The use of the terms is lately under reconsideration from my corner. As long as it doesn't means following only the hard line recon version. If seidh also means drumming and journeying and a Germanic Polytheist form of shamanic counseling, then I could be doing a from of seidhr. If it means oracular shamanism from the High Seat only, with singers around who provide for the trance induction, then I'm not.

I've must have run into the wrong type of Asatruar before because you don't speak like them. It's possible here at least to have a conversation, with agreements and disagreements, without claiming that one owns a whole culture and everyone else who has a different idea is a cultural rapist and has to die. I'm not kidding, this is the sort of thing I've run into.

frith

glasdraoi


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 Post subject: seidr stuff
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 3:25 am 
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howdy Willem,
i've been hoping to find time and inspiration to write a post to this board about my views on seidr. but i just haven't prioritized that time. it is a debatable term but i've pretty much made my mind up about it. :wink:

glasdraoi wrote:

Concerning me disliking the term Seidr: The use of the terms is lately under reconsideration from my corner. As long as it doesn't means following only the hard line recon version.


i think that the only hard line recon version of seidr is that it shouldn't be revived .. . . yet, they say. there is a belief amongst some very book lore based Truar that the modern reconstruction of Heathenry needs a few generations to know itself before seidr is brought into the mix. i disagree with this view.

for one thing i think that it's silly to ignore Old Believers and have just recons as a base. for another some people are just very much pushed, pulled, and called to be active in seidrcraft.

glasdraoi wrote:
If seidh also means drumming and journeying and a Germanic Polytheist form of shamanic counseling, then I could be doing a from of seidhr.


i see seidr as best translatable as "sorcery". of which i feel shamanic practice is a subset. in some circles seidr is loosely used for all of the crafts of the Northern Mysteries other than runes. and even there some overlap occurs. there are people who wish to keep rigidly straight every nuance of Northern magic, such as hamfaring for shape shifting or astral travel in animal form. to my perception this is an action of seidr. drumming is sometimes questioned as authentic to Northern practices. i like my drum. it likes me. and if there was ever anyone the North folks borrowed from it's the Sami. drums are used there. though i find singing to be very trance affecting and a viable solution to music as well.

glasdraoi wrote:
If it means oracular shamanism from the High Seat only, with singers around who provide for the trance induction, then I'm not.


early in the American seidr revival those seance sessions were miscalled as seidr. and so it's stuck. but that is technically incorrect. it would be more proper to call such seership spae. and some do. both terms are now muddling up the equation. that is "oracular seidr" and "spae". both refer to group seances. spae though also is the act of passive seership. it's the gift of easily "seeing" through the veils.

glasdraoi wrote:
I've must have run into the wrong type of Asatruar before because you don't speak like them. It's possible here at least to have a conversation, with agreements and disagreements, without claiming that one owns a whole culture and everyone else who has a different idea is a cultural rapist and has to die. I'm not kidding, this is the sort of thing I've run into.


i get that. i do. every group has it's hardline nutters.

i've run into the opposite. those eclectics who get very angry at anyone choosing to follow a set path. as though my focus on Nordic shamanism in some ways affects their choice of eclecticisms which just happens to glance through Northern ways.

personally i don't think that shamanism can be so pinned down. our allies guide us, our upper world spirits teach us, and we become through that and our abilities. i'm really not that unusual. neither are you. well, for folks like us, that is! :lol:

conversation is good, i like it. :P

i'm sorry that this post isn't as clean and nice and polished as i'd like it to be. but at least it is. :roll: 8)

frith,
Crowfuzz


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 Post subject: Re: seidr stuff
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:25 pm 
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crowfuzz wrote:
i've run into the opposite. those eclectics who get very angry at anyone choosing to follow a set path. as though my focus on Nordic shamanism in some ways affects their choice of eclecticisms which just happens to glance through Northern ways.


Crowfuzz, are you familiar with other forms of Germanic or Northern 'shamanism' apart from the Seidh/Spae configurations done in Asatru (and perhaps other Germanic faiths)?

Though I've been considering using the word Seidh for what I do, I still feel apprehensive about it. I've learned of the terms "Northern Tradition" as a description for all of Nordic based spiritual practices (Asatru, Theodism, Irminen, Norse type of Witchcrafts and Paganism, etc) and the word "Northern Tradition Shamanism" to describe a shamanic approach to this large cultural and spiritual matrix.

What interests me is to know of all the different variants of Trance Induced Spirit work one might find in Germanic culture.

So apart from the basic Seidh/Spa, Recon or not, are you aware of other approaches?

- I imagine that there are some folk who simply put the Harnerian system as a larger blueprint over what they read in the Eddas...

- Seax Wicca I know. It's OK by me, but it isn't 'shamanism'. Neither is Norse Wicca.

- I've heard of a book from Edred Thorson "Witchdom of the True". I think it is a sort of Vanatru, probably with trance techniques. I never wanted to buy it, read to many bad reviews. (Then again, a lot of people said that Star Trek Nemesis was bad and I liked it... so there you go.)

The only other point of view I know, and like, is the Rökkr view of Raven Kaldera and company I mentioned before:
http://www.cauldronfarm.com/nts.html

I'm aware that Giant worshipping people are frowned upon in Asatru circles.

heheheh :twisted: sorry...

I'd like to know if you've heard of other approaches. Or anyone else reading this post for that matter.

==Blessings of the Earth Mother upon you==

Willem/Glasdraoi


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 Post Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:12 pm 
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howdy Willem,
thank you for your post and the link. i'm sorry that it's taken me so long to return here. i'm involved in a local rune study group that i take the teaching role in every other month. on the months that i teach my time is very invested in the lesson as the rune spirits and those entities connected to the runes wish it to be put forth.

it's a sadness to see Raven Kaldera's narrow and biased definitions of Asatru. he's obviously speaking as someone from the outside who is choosing a limited view of the inside. he's also obviously ran across a few fundytrus and decided to give them the power of seeing their definitions of Asatru as valid over less constrained ones. what he writes about Heathenry is a mixture of truths, half truths, and complete misunderstandings. from my POV, anyway. i've been an Asatruar for over 7 years now and a Heathen forever. what Kaldera is choosing to give the terming of "Northern Tradition Paganism" seems like a Northern slant on eclecticism or neo-Paganism. which is fine. eclectic Northern inspired neo-Paganism certainly needs its own term but this one will probably only muddy the waters even more than they were before. i can't say that i think his terming was a good choice for any kind of clarity or differentiation. something actually a bit different than how mundanes view Heathenry would have been helpful.

i honestly don't have the time or energy to go through item by item and put forth where i disagree with what i've read on that site you linked to, other than including a large *sigh* at having read it. i know that Raven is a strong magical worker. but i'm afraid his bias against Asatru, and the misconceptions that he must be holding to have put them forth as facts, colors too much of all he has written that i've read so far to encourage me to delve too deeply into his work.

though, if you look at his article on runes as spirits, i will give one example of his hubris. i and many of those whom i know that are experienced runsters see the runes as spirits. it's not an unusual view. sadly Raven seems to have not had much access to spae folk who are also Asatruar. perhaps if he did he'd be less biased and limit seeking in his views of us.

of course i don't expect anyone to call what they do seidr if the spirits are not singing to them that such is what it is. they sing to me about it though.

in frith,
Crowfuzz


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:52 am 
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Hello Crowfuzz, and happy new year!
Thanks for the reply, it's always interesting for me to find out what your view of things are. I have talked a few times with Raven and he's quite OK in my book. The Helvegr forum is also a good place to be, but I understand some of your big 'sighs' :)

ciao

Willem


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
Happy New Years to you as well, Willem. may it be bright and beautiful.

as far as spending time online on forums i've pared my interests down to two. this one and the Troth forum where i'm a member. you know how time consuming these kinds of places *can* be. :P

i'm fortunate enough to have a great deal of completely private contact with other spae/seidr and shaman type folk. it's been my experience over the years that the really deep things of a spirituality or practice seldom make it to public sharing. i share more than most i know, but i'm often restrained as well.

thanks for the links, and the good stuff.
Crowfuzz


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 Post subject: Medizinmann in Europa
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:55 am 
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Posts: 12
Location: luxembourg
people will allways complain

when i was in american traveling to every tribe do cermony i was

honor every where i went

when i came to europe the american people complain that im in europe
doing cermony

just drives me mad thinking about it


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