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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Quote:
Has the 'New Age' movement given permission for people to be OK with animism and beliefs other than mainstream monotheistic religion?


I think this could be departing the topic at hand, yet it's a vital part of its influence, as well. The New Age movement has definitely widened awareness to a group of people who were otherwise unrepresented in the religious/spiritual experience. However, it hasn't also transmitted responsibility or competency in many respects. To me this is the core connection back to westerners seeking the wisdom of native peoples (over their own wisdom). Perhaps it is as you said, Forest Child, about seeking unbroken cultural lineages (well put, BTW). In indigenous spiritual traditions there is a perhaps timeless, tried-and-true system of knowing who is clearly a shaman and who isn't, who is competent, capable, etc. There has been community agreement, and in some cases, rejection, of the spiritual leader. While some modern shamans embody these respectable qualities, the movement itself has not at all and has no compass by which to measure dedication as a shaman. This point has confused many seekers of healing as well as students of shamanism. When I first began seeking shamanic insight 23 years ago, even the New Age movement had no idea what I was talking about. Indeed, things have changed, but have they improved?

My best to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Dear North,

I am the center of the four directions.To me they come:black, white, brown, yellow and red shamans.There is enough room in my heart,for all of them.
If they love,that which I am,would I deny them my gifts?

Nagual Woman.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:38 pm 
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Forest Child wrote:
Despite all the problems surrounding those few (and to be fair they are pretty limited in comparison to the vast population of the world) people who would pretend to be what they are not, the real plastic shamans who have read a book or two, attended a sweat or a pow wow and then go off to charge £200 per head for weekend workshops in Medicine Wheel teachings or such like, what damage have they done?


Dear Forest Child,

thank you for your post. I have clipped the main question concerning "what harm" can white skinned people cause if they pretend to be from an Indigenous culture.

I think it's fair to say that most spirit workers out there are on a journey to see the truth. But everyone knows you can find the truth on a path of lies.
Let me present you with this example.

After you read, ask yourself what kind of harm can be caused.

Ok, Let's say there is a lady named Jane who tells everyone she is a very powerful shaman. She really has no background in shamanism - cultural, educational or otherwise – but nobody knows this. But she claims she is a big shot Siberian shaman. She has booked a theatre for her authentic presentation into shamanism.

Being you, who is awesome and curious and smart, you want to attend so you can learn more.

So let’s say, the next night, she walks into a theater of average citizens and a few shamans and starts giving an hour lecture about shamanism.
In this lecture, Jane states that she felt called by God to this path and now everyone who paid $100.00 will be able to hear Jane’s authentic account of shamanism from a real shaman and learn a few basic shaman songs and rituals.

So then Jane start telling the audience about shamanism, employing all the stereotypes about shamanism, all the falsehoods and Christian propaganda about alternative spirituality, her views of feminism, etc.

Jane tell the audience that she is giving them a rare, authentic glimpse into shamanism, telling them that shamans are all cult members who partake in massive drug use, group sex with minors, drinking each others blood.

She says that she have read some of this imformation in books, took a two week course on the subject but mostly, the knowledge is from her authentic first hand account that she learned from elders (though they are never named).

While on stage, Jane claims she is an ancient Siberian shaman. Although she does not speak of word of the language, she has made up her own version of the language because she likes the way it sounds. She sings a few songs she made up, claiming they are from God even though they do not follow the musical structure that authentic shaman songs would have.

On stage, she also performs a few improvised shaman rituals. She read a little bit of information about Siberian rituals but more or less just made up her own rituals that made her feel good. Again, she claims that God gave her these rituals.

**
How do you think you’d feel, Forest Child, if you were sitting in the audience having to listen to Jane lie, make up and mis-appropriate everything she is now teaching not only other shamans but ordinary people as well.

And these people are going to leave the theatre thinking they have been told the truth.

They are going to start singing sacred songs to communicate with God, even though the language was just made up gibberish? They are going to go home and perform these rituals thinking they are authentic, when in fact they are all made up?

They might go so far as to show and teach the songs and rituals that Jane taught them to other people, getting telling her friends that these rituals are authentic. They will repeat the lies and stereotypes that Jane shared about shamanism to their friends.

How would you feel, Forest Child, as you’re sitting there in the audience as a shaman yourself, listening to Jane? Would that make you angry. Would you cry.

What kind of harm would you worry Jane was causing with her lies?

***

I have made Jane an extreme case. Of course I not saying that someone cannot be helped by a culture that is not theirs. For example, many people find smudging with the medicines (First Nations) helpful to them. But hopefully, just because they smudge, they don't go around claiming they are First Nations.

And hopefully, they have taken the time to learn and speak to someone who is Native to recieve a teaching on the medicines and they constantly remember and express gratitude towards First Nations -- and hopefully giving back in some way. (Without these acts, it's just cultural appropriation).

I believe there is a huge difference between being helped by a different culture and claiming you are apart of that culture. Then, it's cultural appropriation - claiming to be part of that culture or claiming you can teach or perform public ceremony on behalf of other's culture and that in my POV is wrong.

If I was Indigenous to Siberia and I was in the audience as Jane was speaking, I can tell you I could be angry and bawling my eyes out at the same thing. I would feel like I - my culture, my spirit - being murdered. Can you see the harm that I am worried about?


Last edited by North on Sun Jul 17, 2011 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:54 pm 
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oracledreamhealer wrote:
Dear North,

I am the center of the four directions.To me they come:black, white, brown, yellow and red shamans.There is enough room in my heart,for all of them.
If they love,that which I am,would I deny them my gifts?

Nagual Woman.


Dear Nagual Woman,

What I find is wrong is people pretending to be something that they are not. If you really love yourself - and love the truth - then why would you want to deny who you are, your lineage, heritage and birth right, and pretend to be something you’re not.

For example, the reason people are so up in arms about Little Grandmother (Keisha Crowther) is because she lied to everyone and pretended to be a First Nation elder (from the Salish-Sioux tribe) when she was not. And when confronted with people wanting the truth, she got defensive and lied herself deeper.

I feel that she would have been perfectly fine as a healer if she had just been herself and true to her own people (whatever it was, where ever she is originally Indigenous to: Germanic, Celt, Gaul?) .

Her message would have been authentic and truthful had she just been herself and stood tall in the light of her own truth.

But instead of being good enough as herself, she had to construct this whole fake self, lying about her ethnicity, heritage, her teachers. She lied about being Native American, about being an elder, about her childhood (part of that plot she actually stole from a children's movie).

And now, while her message and her voice would have been good all on its own, all the lies and denial and refusal to apologize and take responsibility for her actions, have poisoned everything. Everything she says and does lacks now truth and authenticity. She and her message cannot be believed. What a shame. Maybe she had great things to share with us, but any truth has been so corrupted by the cancer of her lies.

So sad, had she just had be truthful and had faith in herself, she may have done some good. But the lesson/teaching we get is actually the whole story and consequences of not being true to yourself and true to others.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:24 am 
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Does this work the other way around? Is it politically harmful for a non-European to be a witch or druid?


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:28 am 
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Snowy wrote:
Does this work the other way around? Is it politically harmful for a non-European to be a witch or druid?


Not at all. I mean, its only us spiritually deprived Western Crusaders that are evil consumers without conscience, devouring our way through the world like cancerous viruses. Why wouldn't it be okay for everyone but us to do whatever they want at our expense? We are the root of all evil, the cursed majority that needs to be defied like Goliath, the gargantuan threat to peace, harmony, and world order that needs to be reduced, removed and recycled to make the world a better place. We are the wall that needs to be torn down, 'the man' that must be rebelled against, and all that is evil with/in the world.

Personally, I don't need anyone's permission or validation. If you don't like the color of my skin or my ancestral heritage, its your problem not mine. Admit that you're racist and stop hiding behind such transparent excuses. Give it up.

Wisdom belongs to all. The idea of proprietary culture was invented in the last thirty years, and didn't exist before that or none of our cultures would exist today as they are. I mean, Christianity is not only a Frankenstein religion of mishmashed beliefs haphazardly tossed together and corrupted over time with still other ideas, its been stolen from its original place of birth and forced on whole nations that it didn't belong to. In England, there were dozens of cultures from the paleo proto-cultures to the Normans that corrupted and borrowed, enforced and eradicated beliefs across several cultures from Celts to Saxons, Danes, Goths and beyond. The Native tribes are the same way, following classic migration and socio-cultural evolution lines.

If you want to indict a culture for theft of ideas then you have to indict the whole of the world. The Kievan Rus were Vikings before settling in what became Kiev and borrowed indigenous ideas to form a new culture, and even the Comanche were influenced by the Sioux before giving ideas to the Apache. Two cultures cannot live in close proximity, have interactions with each other and not do one of two things; borrow cultural ideas, or eradicate one of them. The two cultures either blend eventually, or one disappears.

So, it doesn't matter what people think in the long run. It all irrelevant in the end anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:14 am 
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North wrote:
After you read, ask yourself what kind of harm can be caused.

Ok, Let's say there is a lady named Jane who tells everyone she is a very powerful shaman. She really has no background in shamanism - cultural, educational or otherwise – but nobody knows this. But she claims she is a big shot Siberian shaman. She has booked a theatre for her authentic presentation into shamanism.

Being you, who is awesome and curious and smart, you want to attend so you can learn more.

So let’s say, the next night, she walks into a theater of average citizens and a few shamans and starts giving an hour lecture about shamanism.
In this lecture, Jane states that she felt called by God to this path and now everyone who paid $100.00 will be able to hear Jane’s authentic account of shamanism from a real shaman and learn a few basic shaman songs and rituals.

So then Jane start telling the audience about shamanism, employing all the stereotypes about shamanism, all the falsehoods and Christian propaganda about alternative spirituality, her views of feminism, etc.

Jane tell the audience that she is giving them a rare, authentic glimpse into shamanism, telling them that shamans are all cult members who partake in massive drug use, group sex with minors, drinking each others blood.

She says that she have read some of this imformation in books, took a two week course on the subject but mostly, the knowledge is from her authentic first hand account that she learned from elders (though they are never named).

While on stage, Jane claims she is an ancient Siberian shaman. Although she does not speak of word of the language, she has made up her own version of the language because she likes the way it sounds. She sings a few songs she made up, claiming they are from God even though they do not follow the musical structure that authentic shaman songs would have.

On stage, she also performs a few improvised shaman rituals. She read a little bit of information about Siberian rituals but more or less just made up her own rituals that made her feel good. Again, she claims that God gave her these rituals.

**
How do you think you’d feel, Forest Child, if you were sitting in the audience having to listen to Jane lie, make up and mis-appropriate everything she is now teaching not only other shamans but ordinary people as well.

And these people are going to leave the theatre thinking they have been told the truth.

They are going to start singing sacred songs to communicate with God, even though the language was just made up gibberish? They are going to go home and perform these rituals thinking they are authentic, when in fact they are all made up?

They might go so far as to show and teach the songs and rituals that Jane taught them to other people, getting telling her friends that these rituals are authentic. They will repeat the lies and stereotypes that Jane shared about shamanism to their friends.

How would you feel, Forest Child, as you’re sitting there in the audience as a shaman yourself, listening to Jane? Would that make you angry. Would you cry.

What kind of harm would you worry Jane was causing with her lies?

***

I have made Jane an extreme case. Of course I not saying that someone cannot be helped by a culture that is not theirs. For example, many people find smudging with the medicines (First Nations) helpful to them. But hopefully, just because they smudge, they don't go around claiming they are First Nations.

And hopefully, they have taken the time to learn and speak to someone who is Native to recieve a teaching on the medicines and they constantly remember and express gratitude towards First Nations -- and hopefully giving back in some way. (Without these acts, it's just cultural appropriation).

I believe there is a huge difference between being helped by a different culture and claiming you are apart of that culture. Then, it's cultural appropriation - claiming to be part of that culture or claiming you can teach or perform public ceremony on behalf of other's culture and that in my POV is wrong.

If I was Indigenous to Siberia and I was in the audience as Jane was speaking, I can tell you I could be angry and bawling my eyes out at the same thing. I would feel like I - my culture, my spirit - being murdered. Can you see the harm that I am worried about?


From what I read above, I can sense your indignation and I share it, however there is no actual harm done in the above scenario, only personal feelings that this person is a sham. Me - I would stand up in that lecture and put a few things right about my heritage, language and culture. Gently done and with respect so that all there could understand this was done out of the need for clarity not revenge.

However, the big point which seems to be missed is not whether groups of people are indignant at their culture being misused, but the actual, psychological harm which a foolish wanabee can do by attempting to 'treat' a person with serious psychological issues. Many people coming to a western shaman have exhausted every other possibility and range from the suicidal to the termally ill. 'Playing around' with their health and wellbeing just so you can practice being a big Kahuna is a MAJOR NO-NO for me and precisely where good training needs to be focussing.

People all over the world have aped my UK culture for centuries, we have been invaded so many times, subjugated by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Celts, Vikings, French, Romans , (the Spanish had a go too!) then we became the explorers and conquerers. It is a bad pattern of pain causing more pain and the only way to stop it is to stop causing the pain in the first place.

There are duids in California and Scottish witches in Australia, a Welsh wise women in Brazil and just about anything else you can think of.

Feeling indignant that someone is not teaching your cultural ways correctly perhaps is something that you personally need to address. Go gently face these people if that will help but to be honest, I would rather start teaching an open way which accepts each person's need to find their spiritual path than worrying about 'Jane' who is a bit misguided. Most people are savy enough to see right through the 'Jane's of this world just as you do and even when they don't perhaps that is their path of learning???


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:23 am 
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The issue with people like Keisha Crowther is so sad. With the right training she may have had something wonderful to offer the world but because there is this perceived and maintained divide between cultures without understanding the foundational wisdom, there will be more of these people who feel the need to give themselves 'position' and lineage in order to be authentic.

This is a wonderful thread, it has opened up so many possibilities if only we can ALL see each others differing points of view.

When we truly start to learn and teach oneanother so that we have a common base of understanding then many of these problems will evaporate.

The whole world has SO MUCH to learn from 1st Nation cultures everywhere but no one single tribe or clan has all the answers. Likewise modern western society has many advantages and advances in health care, psychology science etc which everyone can benefit from. Together we can find balance but as long as the walls remain there will be difficulties.

As shamanic practitioners, if we can cross the borders of the other worlds why oh why can't we break down the illusions of separation here?


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Quote:
As shamanic practitioners, if we can cross the borders of the other worlds why oh why can't we break down the illusions of separation here?


Ironic, isn't it? Shamanism, and other forms of nature spirituality, are about taking lessons from Nature. And in Nature, there aren't supposed to be inflated egos.

Politics and spirituality really shouldn't mix, if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 7:11 pm 
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So now I'm really confused...

Are we talking about validity of tradition?

Are we talking about racial aptitudes?

Are we talking about charlatans?

Are we talking about Proprietary Culture?

or...

Are we talking about some combination of the above?


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:27 pm 
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To simplify things, it is the cultural appropriation.

There is one thing about practicing a religion/spirituality if you were not born into it through indigenous lineage, to me, it's a whole other thing to declare yourself a shaman and use their shamanic practices.

Especially when someone shows nothing but defensiveness as opposed to gratitude and relations back to the culture in question. Or claim that, the old familiar story, that they just wandered into Indigenous territory and found and declared a “shaman”. That snake-oil story is so tired.

Especially for me when I hear this from people who are not 60 or 70 years old. You don’t even see shamans so young within that Indigenous culture.

Another aspect is learning the language, as for Indigenous language even being able to speak some of the language is very important, as language, culture and spirituality are so intertwined.

For example, how could someone claim they are a Nish shaman and not even know how to say the words: "all our relations" in Anishinaabe?

I cannot tell anyone who to honour with prayer, again, I draw the line when someone declares they are a shaman. For example, a white-skinned person can attend a First Nation sweat but it's another thing all together to claim you are a shaman and a lodge keeper. Don't go calling yourself a shaman.

For example, please see this video by Doreen Mary Bray. She is a non indigenous woman who has created a How-To run a sweat video.

You have to have lived a long life with a good heart and have good medicine in order to facilitate a sweat lodge or else you put yourself and the participants in danger. We saw this with Arthur Ray’s sweat lodge deaths in Sedona.

http://spiritualnetworks.com/DoreenMary ... t-happens/

Also, if you watch her video, there are so many breaches of Sacred Protocol, which again puts her and her participants at risk.

And yes, she tries to make the type of Sweat Lodges seen in the video seem a generalized, world phenomenon, but she constantly refers to Native American spiritualism, so which is it? I often hear people trying to compare a sauna to a sweat lodge and while they are both good for the health, the first is cultural and the second is spiritual.

Again, why would any participant want to put themselves at mortal risk under the plastic shaman who breaches basic protocol? I mean, there is room for each lodge keeper to run a sweat their way, but basic protocol must be observed or you put everyone at risk.

And again, there is nothing wrong with a while-skinned person attending a sweat if it is authentic and follows spiritual protocols, not run by a so called shaman who is so young and so disrespectful of First Nations traditions.

In North America, the sweat lodge was created post contact to help Native Americans cope with the devastating effects of colonialization, racism, rape, cultural appropriation and land theft.

Why would a decent person want to continue that colonial tradition? I ask that?


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:13 am 
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The idea of Proprietary Culture isn't just new, it has adapted since the 1960s to specifically address New Agey instant gratification spiritualism without the effort I usually refer to as "McSpiritualists". Which, in and of itself, probably wouldn't be a problem at all except for two strikingly obvious side effects.
1. New Agers are capitalizing off spiritual beliefs that are not their own, which is (lol) in the finest tradition of European Imperialism and the Capitalist dogma. (No offense, but it is.)
2. The spiritual practices being sold are often re-packaged and marketed for mass commercialism in Eurocentic populations, ignoring the original to meet a mass quota for money. This, then, becomes the expected norm to a society that has no readily accessible access to the truth, and is then imposed on the indigenous culture it was supposedly taken from.

Now playing catch up in the souvenir department and trying to impose craft and trade restrictions to guarantee commercial viability and having to re-educate an entire generation to compensate for Hollywood theatrics and the misinformation of their own kids, elders are once again closing down on all the available sources of actual information. Yeah, because that worked so well for the Masons. What do you expect to be the natural outcome of a gag order on authentic information to the general public? Will the common tourist be better informed or worse. If our only sources of information are the inaccurate movies and such already available, then is it reasonable to expect better behaved tourists?

As for charlatans usurping traditions, good luck stopping that. Look at Casteneda and Harner. I applaud their efforts to bring shamanism to the awareness of the common person, but look at the cost. Now, everyone believes that "soul flight" is universal to all forms of shamanism, a defining character. You have two generations of neo shaman practitioners that actually believe you can not only take the animism out of it, but stories, icons, metaphors, traditions, and the cultural elements as a whole out, and just practice the mechanical techniques and be a shaman. Sheesh, we're even arguing about what the word means and how to use it, who can use... or more accurately, trying to eliminate it altogether. Why? Is it a derogatory term? I would have thought that the deliberate misinterpretation of "medicine man" with its obviously degrading connotations that was imposed universally on all First Nation Tribes would be more derisive than Shaman, a technical term. Or, as it seems, is this just more racial hygiene philosophy at work only in reverse this time?

It's been suggested that wisdom is the provenance of everyone, but culture is proprietary to its originators. Well, I have a problem with that for two reasons.
1. As I said before, there isn't a single culture today that doesn't owe its origins to some other culture, from the Haida and Olmec with the Clovis culture, to the India, China, Japan, and Tibet intermingling of ideas and beliefs. From language and art to crafts and technology. There isn't a culture today that should not be indicted for theft of cultural ideas and practices. It is unavoidable. If those cultures interact there will be cross contamination.
2. Where does the subjective distinction between wisdom and proprietary culture exist? At first glance it appears to be an easy distinction, but is the use of desert sage exclusive to First Nation tribes or can it be used in other practices like witchcraft. What about tobacco? Can we adapt practices from one culture to fit our needs, and if so, how much do we need to change them before they are ours. Isn't that still theft? Can I, for instance, use the Santee pipe ceremony to open a circle in witchcraft? (No, I wouldn't. But, just because I wouldn't doesn't mean someone else isn't.)

The very notion of Proprietary Culture is, to me, untenable. You cannot prevent cross contamination. Even if you clamp down on all outgoing information, the cultural contamination coming in will still happen. The idea that wisdom belongs to all but the way to that wisdom is culturally proprietary is a cop out. It's like saying the water in the well is free but use of the bucket will cost you. That's great if you happen to have your own bucket and rope. For those without, you're essentially saying they are left out of the wisdom, or can only come to it through the mercies of those with access. Then you actively deny them access to your own methods and look down on them with contempt as they die of thirst? How is that enlightenment?

Do I support First Nation Cultural Continuation. Yes I do. I support it with all my being. I do not want it to disappear from the earth as I feel that would be a great wrong and deny us, the people of the world, a great wisdom. But, neither do I see that closing off and denying the knowledge to others as doing anything more than guaranteeing that demise.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:33 am 
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Well put strmraven, you said it better than I could. This was what I was trying to get at, that ALL cultures everywhere in the world owe at least some of their beliefs to other cultures somewhere in the past. Virtually all have been invaded, conquered, appropriated, subjugated and themselves become the conquerers, and appropriators. Women are usually the first teachers of the new generation and when those women were originally captured from neighbouring clans or intermarried there is always going to be a cross over of beliefs.

However, that said, the point which North seems to be getting at seems to be the inappropriate, half understood and often untrue use of portions of information which are bandied about as though authentic when in fact they are anything but.

I agree that the cross-use of certain elements when done with deep understanding and sensitivity can be very productive, educational and healing. The problem is that most often such ceremonies when taken wholesale out of the context of their culture and when offered by a person not of that original culture, come across as mere window dressing, theatre or self aggrandisement.

There are real dangers involved as North points out and as we have seen here on this forum when sweats, entheogens and vision quests are hosted by those with limited experience and understanding. Although life carries its own dangers and we cannot possibly live a life wrapped in cotton wool, neither should we be encouraging the open flouting of such common sense safeguards either.

There is a great train here in the west which everyone feels obliged to climb on board. It starts at the library and heads out for Hollywood. On the way each person having a spiritual awakening and drawn to Shamanism is beguiled into believing that:

a) they must be being called to be a shaman (as opposed to living in a shamanistic way)
b) they have to start teaching workshops
c) they must become widely known and successful in order to demonstrate the proof of their calling

This is NOT the way it has ever been in any other culture. Every person on the planet may and probably does have a spiritual awakening at some point in their lives. Some ignore it, some miss the point, some go in a different direction but all can, if they have the right information around them, find a better and more wholesome way of living. If everyone alive today lived a shamanic lifestyle would we all be shamans?

As far as my understanding goes, shamanism is about working with the Spirits in the service of others, not fame or self aggrandisement and training a new shaman was a rare and special time, not a night school course at the Adult learning annex. Times have changed, I know, and for most westerners now, even having contact with someone who works in a shamanic way is not straight forward so sitting in circle with others, talking about basics of animism, mythology, ceremony etc is one good way forward to share such knowledge but the recognition and training of a new shaman isn't undertaken in a wholesale manner. There has to be a working relationship between mentor and student which spans years, possibly decades but certainly not days.

It's an unfortunate side effect of our current dominant culture to want it all and want it now but as long as the only contact in the west with shamanic people is via workshops to become a shaman then the confusion will continue.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Mackenzie wrote:
Hi North,

I am not being defensive at all. It is arrogant of you to think that you said anything substantive enough for me - or anyone else - to be defensive about.

But, yes, I am aggressive in response to your notion of being so right, when your argument is so very weak.

Conviction alone is not convincing.

Not all forms of shamanism are the same, for example. And in the tradition I was apprenticed to the role of ancestors is not as you state. There are other things in your argument which do not apply.

But I am not going to correct you on all these aspects. It's not your ignorance which is most objectionable. It's your lack of humility...to put it mildly and gently.

Mackenzie


North seems to have an attitude problem in general. i've placed this person on my ignore list because i am sick of this type claiming authority. anyone can come on the internet and make grand boasts. i have a doctorate in bullshit, and i smell a lot of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamans must be from Indigenous cultures
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:07 pm 
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Not all forms of shamanism is the same, for example. Not for your country, I became an apprentice in the role of ancestral tradition. Your argument does not apply with other things


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