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 Post subject: Shamanism and NAFPS.
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
During the first two or three months of 2008 I had a rather bad encounter with those guys from the "New Age Fraud and Plastic Shaman" board, which led me to the consequence of a clear statement against certain individuals there whose lack of respect cannot be described.

Anyway, the idea of protecting Native American Spirituality from Exploitation is a very important thing. They exposed some of the hardest Exploiters on their board.

This fact alone prevents me from more steps against them: They occasionally do a great job.

What do you think of the problem of Exploitation of NA-Spirituality? Where is the line to be drawn between real Exploitation and individual spirituality, which may very well be based on NA-Spirituality? I know here are several Users around that are indeed practicing NA-Spirituality, not being NA at all. What are your thoughts?

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:01 pm 
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Last edited by stitcherman on Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:51 pm
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Location: Ohio
There is no one set way to do it right, however, conversely there is no one set way to do it wrong either.

Honestly I have to say this 'New age' Renaissance is to me a 'fad' much like the hippies from the disco and techno era's. Heavily populated with people who are simply there because the 'image' placed on this new age culture yields certain appeals to the 'quick fix seeking' population of the world. Especially in much of the 'modernized' portions. (Don't get me wrong, technology is great, considering I'm using the internet now I'd be a hypocrite to say otherwise,) but as we continue to modernize the general flow of the population, at least in my own experience, is being drawn more and more so into this quick fix to all their solutions, (as we talked about in the 'plastic shaman' thread the fast food healing and what not.)

As a former member of the therianthropy communities I've experienced my own deal of attacks on my integrity and was tested just to simply prove to some of the 'higher' members of their community that my own positions were of legitimate origin. Something I'd rather not have to go through again it can be rather annoying, especially considering the new 'higher ups' are nothing like the old ones. But in retrospect, I appreciate what they did, knowing that it inadvertently helped me to gain further insight onto my own plights and dealings.

So suffice to say I can at least appreciate those who are willing to be the 'jerks' to test people and communities to make sure they are as legitimate as possible.

Getting to the actual question at hand...um...As far as drawing a line is concerned. Its questionable. I mean it would be a neat idea to actually be able to try to layout the formalities behind the NA specific spirituality. However I also don't like the idea of trying to use those formal 'rules' as a means to isolate too many from the seeking of self spirituality.

I think in the end, it will come down to the individuals. Creating absolute set rules or methods to 'stop exploitation' will invariably turn against itself and generate its own segment of exploitation through the rules (*See Christianity). I say let Nature simply take her course, and try to help those individuals whom you see or sense are being duped by exploitation.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamanism and NAFPS.
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:57 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:42 am
Posts: 210
Location: Alexandria, Virginia USA
Apu Kuntur wrote:
What do you think of the problem of Exploitation of NA-Spirituality? Where is the line to be drawn between real Exploitation and individual spirituality, which may very well be based on NA-Spirituality? I know here are several Users around that are indeed practicing NA-Spirituality, not being NA at all. What are your thoughts?

Apu Kuntur, thank you for your diligence in this very controversial issue.

IMHO, this all has to do with fear. NAs have lost so much: their lands, their children, themselves - and to now lose their sacred ways is beyond comprehension. In their view, they are becoming annihilated in every aspect... a form of genocide.

I don't know if a clear line can be drawn between exploitation and individual spirituality. But there certainly is a difference. Only a person's integrity can be the guiding factor. If I must defend my position, then what have I done to cause the attack in the first place? That is what needs to be addressed. And maybe that is where the line is.


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 Post subject: Re: Shamanism and NAFPS.
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:45 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Dallas, Texas
If american spirits want to work with a non-natives, then how about the board issues a complaint to the spirits?


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:27 pm
Posts: 91
Location: Cedar Park, TX 78613
A touchy subject,who's responsibility are these ceremonies and beliefes,pardon my spelling,I am not a profiteer and I dont have any aspirations to profit monetarily from my chosen religiouse beliefes,I want to see the problem from both sides,If you are sensitive about others profiting from your beliefes quit giving them away,there are a millian books on different aspects of the lacota religion,Pipeholders,Buffalodreamers,I believe the problem comes from the fact that they've always shared their way freely,started with other native people that lived close started adopting certain aspects of ceremony as a form of respect for the power of the nation,namely the pipe ceremony,the peyote ceremony from the Comanche,the Ghost dance from the Paiutes,most of the surviving tribes that lost a lot of their original beliefes have come to adopt these beliefes as their own,a lot of others are reading about these beliefes and are adopting them,I see this as the natural fruition of the Ghost dance,part of bringing all the native people back,I am experiencing similar problems in the Native American Flute scene,Ebay's kicking out any selers that arent card carying Native tribal members selling Native American crafts,now all the flute makers are trying to find a new name for the flute,with the flute you have several tribes who claim creation of this type of flute,who do you pay your royalties to if you were so disposed to do so,Popularity's going up,people are seeking answers theyre trying new things some stick and some dont but most end up with more respect than they had before,times are hard,and activists have to eat too,as far as new age religion goes well I dont think you can lump them all together and find their worth,buyer beware,quit relying on a watchdog to tell you what is right and good,if there is a profit being made from a set tribes beliefes I believe its right and good to spread the wealth,whats my opinion worth,no more or less than anyone else typing along on an impersonal device made to share information,a lot of the people supposedly fighting for native rights are not afiliated with any tribe,something like PITA fighting to protect the rights of the Feral Hog,a lot of issues some relevent some just designed to manipulate using the media to achieve an undisclosed end,not nesesarily the one on the board today if you take my meaning,PITA was just an example so please dont go there,Nothing can be stolen that was given away freely,be careful what you vote for,it comes down to power,someone wants some,the right to tell you how you can market your beliefes as it were,Beliefs are free,marketing however costs,now their just trying to decide who gets to charge you for it,the more you profit the more attention you draw to yourself by people who want to share without doing the work,another sign of the times,Keep it simple and personal and it will always be yours,the Japanese have a saying the Nail that sticks out gets Hammered,exploitation well,we're gonna have to adapt thats for sure,when you give something freely in the hopes of changing a world view dont complain when the world takes the ball and runs with it,things will settle down but it might take another 200 years,I've noticed that something is happening in the Lacota tribe,things are moving things are shaking,dont know if its gonna be good or bad seems like a way to wake up the young people,to give them some pride in their identity,nothing wrong with that,been a long time comming,oyate underground has stated that non native reproduction of the NAFlute is stealing their tribal manhood,they call their flutes siyotanka's,their not blaming the Navajo's or the Choctaw or Cherokee or Kiowa comanche who all have their own flute creation stories,Its the use of the term Native American before the title flute,so some makers have had to add Style between American and Flute,now its North American Flute,soon we'll be calling them SACs because its the only part of the flute that realy makes it different from a recorder or other end blown flutes,anyway i've got off topic but its linked to the same problem,a group has started making money,New agers are popular FOR NOW,flutes are becomming all that modern technology can produce and their charging for it,how do we define exploitation of Native American Culture when its such a big part of the American culture,I believe its too generalized,I also believe that it is a natural course through which boundaries will be established to ensure the welfare of all involved I hope,lol,I dont think we'll ever get anywhere by being separate from each other,but theres nothing wrong with being proud of who you are and where your from someday we'll start profiting because of each other and not from each other,someday I'll be an Earthling and not just that Damn White Guy. :shock:


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:43 pm
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....................


Last edited by stitcherman on Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:45 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Dallas, Texas
Some comments:

1. We are native to the country we are born in. I was born in Texas. That makes me a native Texan. Texas is in America. That makes me a native American. And I am also a native to Earth, to Sol, to the Milky Way.

2. The culture we live in is more important than blood. Consider a baby adopted by Lakota parents, raised by them, living in their culture. So who cares what country or tribe they wereborn in. It is the culture they live that counts.

3. The term "American" has nothing to do with tribes. It is a term made by Europeans for this continent.

4. To restrict someone from *anything* because of their blood ancestry is no different than racism. I recommend fighting against such bigotry.


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:21 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:43 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Wales
i feel i should mention a few things...

(1) well stitcherman you are right there is alot of shit in new age beliefs, i personally beleive there should always be some proof of life expected before anyone believes anything, i guess this is common sense,
but although most new-agers are kind you should always beware of those who ask for money and then don't deliver on their promises. the way i see things a healer should always ask for payment after he has healed the ill individual, but this of course does not always work.

(2)the thing mentioned about wether you are native or not, the way i see it is that, only aborigine cultures and those born into or initiated by some figure of authority can truly call themselves a native of any land.

but for those whose traditional cultures have been wiped out or poisoned by alien cultures, they should consider themselves non-native and should work hard to re-establish a culture of their own creations and beleifs.

this is where NAs come in and where i beleive those NAs who follow that path are right, such as the Druid movement in Britain trying to re-establish one of the traditional spiritual cultures of our ancestors.

[This is why Shamanism has had a stronger call to non natives lately, because everyone has had shamanistic ancestors, it connects us as a species, and is the only calling for some that connects them to this.]

but this leads me back to the point about being a texan-native, but as a native to a culture you should be spokesperson to the world of that culture.
so ask yourself:-

am i a true texan,
am i the only true texan,
am i representing a culture i do not want to be a part of,
do i belong to another culture
would i fit in better with those in another culture.

[a culture is an identity not a place]

these are how i see these things.

StoneCrow...

P.S i do not consider myself a native of any country and frankly the policies of Britain often disgust me.


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:28 pm 
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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:35 pm
Posts: 98
Location: Stafford Springs ,CT US
Hello to everyone! We are all one! This subject is part of a hugh problem that not only is negatively a big part of the seperation of people not just in a spiritual aspect but in a moral and controlling one. I guess you can say like cancer. That ignorance and ego based groups and people use to destroy the chance for our world to come together as one for world peace! I am 1/4 apache and also irish and german. But for me I am just a son of the Great Spirit (GOD). And thats what we all are sons and daughters. Brothers and sisters. If we could all see what we all are truely than the world would change it is a fact. But for thousands of years the groups that control the people with fear and false truths are scared to death of the thought of people awakening to the truth. So as long as ignorant and controlling people belive that they are better than someone else because of there beliefs or skin color or sex or spiritual beliefs we are just feeding this ugly cancer and going along with the groups that control us plan. I know full blooded NA that use exploitation for ego based control and money. So for me what ever gets you on your true path or your awakening is ok by me. But who am I anyway? Stop judgeing others and use your energy for things that matter for the good of all not just for the good of a few! When I am out in the forest danceing to my animal totem the trees and animals and rocks and plants, etc don't care that I am a apache, irish, german, mutt. And mother earth and nature are pure spiritually and its not even a issue so why few so many it is. Peace to all!!! Jim


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:42 am
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Location: Alexandria, Virginia USA
Foolshawk wrote:
...thats what we all are sons and daughters. Brothers and sisters. If we could all see what we all are truely than the world would change it is a fact...Mother Earth and nature are pure spiritually and its not even a issue

ah yes, the voice of fresh air

thank you, Foolshawk!


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:26 am 
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..............


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:25 am 
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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:51 pm
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Location: Ohio
From what I've read on some essays from Jewish philosophical papers, in the old Hebrew language there is no 'word' for 'God'. Well there is, but its not a noun. Its a verb.

The best way to describe how it was pronounced would be to call God, "isingness". Essentially that it is the 'flow' of existence.


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