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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:24 am 
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shamanic calling isn't like what many people describe how they "heard the call" to become a minister or anything like that
and you don't just decide to become a shaman

most of the time it's not voluntary at all
and it's not "fun"
but is amazing

to the shaman, Journey is the same in all realms, whether here in ordinary reality (OR) or non-ordinary reality (NOR) and everything is alive and real
and deadly serious

not everything has YOUR best interest at heart

why do you ask?


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:00 pm 
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i ask because in reading about shamanism i haven't come across a good explanation or description of shamanic calling. i don't understand the event or process. so you've said what a shamanic calling isn't, and that it is amazing.. can you say what else it is? can you explain the shamanic calling?

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to the shaman, Journey is the same in all realms, whether here in ordinary reality (OR) or non-ordinary reality (NOR) and everything is alive and real
and deadly serious


thats fine, but i was basically asking how similar shamanic trance is to lucid dreams.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:49 pm 
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ok - let me try again:
Shamanic calling isn't a "calling." You don't wake up one day and decide that hey - I'm interested in being a shaman and there are some cool workshops that will teach me. YOU do not decide to become a shaman - the spirits, guides, whatever you call them, decide that for you. The only part (or choice) you have is to accept it.

Most of the time, becoming a shaman is terrifying. You see things; hear things; become sick; almost lose your mind. And then things start to happen that either drag you kicking and screaming into the teachings, or you encounter someone who recognizes what is happening to you and sets you on the shamanic path.

Now, if you don't accept, there are consequences. The Spirits rarely take NO for an answer. They are not like humans at all, and that's what makes it amazing. Shamans remain human but live between the worlds of reality and non-reality.

Shamanic trance is NOT dreaming of any kind (lucid or other). It's all reality. To the shaman, everything is alive and real in all places. In dreams, nothing is real. To the shaman, EVERYTHING is real because it is not a dream.

Shaman are not bound by space or time or any of the ordinary restrictions that limit people, like in dreams. A shaman can be sitting in his medicine space and heal someone halfway around the world and that person whom the shaman is healing oftentimes will see and feel the shaman as if they were right there in the same room. And if the shaman has to defend or retrieve your soul, a serious negotiation or deadly war can wage on your behalf in another realm or plane of existence.

Shaman deal with pure, raw energy that has no limits or boundaries. It is beyond science and laws. Science searches through the known to expand on what is known. Shaman search to find the unknown to then create the known.


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 Post Posted: Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:18 pm 
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That's an excellent explanation Rachara El. Many of those who do not head Spirit's "call" to them end up in institutions for the mentally ill...or dead. It's not the kind of call one can ignore easily -- those 1 or 2 folks I know that qualify had little choice -- if they wanted to survive with some sanity intact, they took on the arduous training -- years and years of it.

I know one totally initiated Shaman, and two "initiates" -- there is still a good chance that those initiates will end up not completing their initiations -- and they have been at it for over a decade.

You're right -- it's not like you decide, "that's what I want to be when I grow up" - lol Not by a long shot. It's not "glamourous" at all, and I tend to be very suspicious of those folks who call themselves Shaman...there are so many "weekend Shamans" that have taken workshops, are trained in psychology, and take on the label "Shaman".

Crowtalker


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:49 pm 
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thanks rachara, that helps. i have some more questions though.

i understand that the shaman knows the usually unseen world to be as real as this world, i'm just trying to get at what the unseen world is like. i have never seen or felt what i know to be a spirit, or a very intense 'hallucination', only close eyed visuals and hypnagogic imagery.. just wondering what the spirit world is like to the senses and mind. my guess was that it was sort of the waking counterpart to a lucid dream. instead of being awake in a dream you would be dreaming in waking life. or at least that there might be some crucial similarities. so can you or can anyone else explain what a spirit or the 'spirit world' is like? do you see them? with eyes closed or open? what do they look like, sound like, etc.? what it is like for a spirit or spirits to call you to initiation? how does communication work with a spirit? and on and on..

to me, it seems that shamanic calling comes at a turning point for an individual who has a certain extreme form of mental illness that requires going into ecstatic states to fix. they may be so far from normal functioning that reconciling this large gap and experiencing extreme inner depth and thus forms of reality that leads to transformation that the knowledge gained is enough to help people in a powerful way through the same channels. it seems like anyone who helps themselves out of a tough mental process may use the same things as spirits that help them, they just may not now them to be spirits because their problems and personal experiences are not as extreme or deep enough. any thoughts on this?

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You're right -- it's not like you decide, "that's what I want to be when I grow up" - lol


yes i've heard this. but i've also heard that one can sort of impose themselves on spirits in a way.. actually i've read it - mircea eliade, elsewhere online- that people can try to undergo their own initiation without the call, though they are generally regarded as lesser shamans, though still might legitimately be dealing with what the naturally called shamans know as spirits and can use those relationships to productive ends. is there no legitimate shamanic initiation where one tries to see if they can commune with spirits by experiencing certain ecstatic or extreme states and ends up in a situation where the choice to undergo training must be made?


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:19 pm 
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Hi Freaker,

For your first set of questions about what the spirit world is like - well, it's impossible to answer that. It can be the full psychedelic weirdness or it could be more or less just like ordinary reality; or it could be some hyped up version of ordinary reality; or it could be something very "other". In terms of getting information, in general, I could mention clairevoyance, claireaudience, and clairesentience. In the first, you see spirits etc; in the second, you hear; in the third, you just "know". But saying those things does not give you or anyone the answer to your question about what it's like. The key is to ask with clear intention and trust what you get and how you get it.

As for the "calling" - Well, this is an odd comparison - but I would say it's something like waking up to the presence of whichever sex you are attracted to! You just know it's something you gotta do! - that it's something that you will learn about as you do it.

I strongly doubt anyone will tell about their initiation experiences. It just ain't done - just like we can't/don't talk about learning about sex.

Clearly you are intrigued. Clearly you have had some experineces that have set you to wondering about all this. This may be the first step in your "awakening" to the world of spirit. I would strongly suggest that you find someone to work with and learn how to do it. The Foundation for Shamanic Studies offers a relatively inexpensive and short two-day introductory workshop in both Europe and North America. It's not a bad place to start if you live on either continent. At least there you get some basic techniques and guidance.

Good luck
Chris


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 8:06 pm 
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So often times it seems that we humans want some really earth shaking/shattering experience that is so alien from what we "know" in order to believe that we have accessed something like "spirit". But you know the old saying, "As above, so below"?

My Dreaming experiences, my time with Spirit walking through the Dreamtime, have never been so alien that I couldn't comprehend it. We are given what we can understand...what would be the point of Spirit giving us something so alien we couldn't even get close to comprehending it? Or so alien that it completely unhinged us?

We humans tend to dismiss something that we believe is the usual and the mundane as non-magical. That is absolutely totally and completely far from the truth! The "world" we live in IS magic! It is the RESULT of magic! It is the result of Spirit. Do not dismiss that which is the usual as something not worthy of awe!

I was taught that the keys to the Dreamtime include observation, being present, seeing clearly the "what is". We get so many "clues" as to what the Dreamtime has to teach us and offer us if we just observe and pay attention! The world which you know as your usual world IS part of the Dreaming! "Life IS but a dream." It's ALL the Dream.

Crowtalker


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 11:55 am 
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Hi Freaker,

I thought of one of the more striking bits of my initiatory experience that might illustrate what Rachara and Crowtalker are talking about. I've shared it before, so I guess I can share it here. It is only one little bit of it, but it was significant.

This came to me as a very intense dream during the night as I awakened to the world of spirit. In the dream I found myself on a very high very narrow mountain ridge in almost total darkness. The only light, a golden light, came from the very narrow high path I was on. Then, below I could see another path, much broader, shining with gold and silver light. I continued on my very narrow path to a cliff that fell into an abyss. The path turned into a tightrope across the abyss. I couldn't see the other side, but I knew I had to start walking that tightrope, so I did, hesitant step by hesitant step. After walking for a while, I looked down at my hands and realized that I was holding the end of the rope on which I was walking into the absolute blackness over the abyss. The dreamed ended.

I did not wake up and say "wow, neat dream - it means...." I puzzled over it for a very long time before I finally understood that I am the dreamer dreaming the reality through which, on which, I walk. I am the ocnsciousness that sustains the dream through which, on which, I walk. In later modifications, it became "I am both the whole consciousness and a fragment of the consciousness that creates and sustains the world." And furthermore, each of us is just that, as is everything around us - including those things conventional wisdom would call "inanimate".

Crowtalker speaks the truth when he says that the world is magic and immensely worthy of awe. And Rachara is absolutely right when she says that getting to this understanding is terrifying - and that living in it certainly not always pleasant. These energies are not necessarily human and don't automatically understand what it means to be human They can be very difficult to deal with.

But some have no choice in the matter, none at all. I focus as much as possible on the immense beauty and my sense of awe at being alive to it in this very special way.

Trust your protecting and guiding spirits to lead you on your path with wisdom and compassion. And certainly ask to be protected at every step.

Chris


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 Post subject: Calling of the ancient ones
 Post Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:36 pm 
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Although I live in Texas, my blood comes from the Czech Republic, and all 4 grandparents were from that land. And yet, I've been the "black sheep", turning away from Roman Catholic traditions, finding displeasure in "civilized" things, and feeling a yearning for "something else". Looking back at my path, it is as if the ancient spirits of this land had been coaxing me. Since I've learned to see, learned to do, I've found my home, which is not really a house but a trail.


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