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 Post subject: plastic shaman
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:08 am 
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Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:47 am
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Location: mariposa, california
out of respect to indigenous peoples, i do not use the word shaman in reference to myself. i am a shamanic practitioner. our teachers addressed this. there is no need to stand for the right to use this definition, shaman. i believe if we simply do what we do, we are changing the world. i am grateful to the indigenous elders who recognize that our spirit work is not exclusive to genetic lineage. we are all indigenous, we are all from ancient shamanic cultures. indigenous peoples are struggling for the last vestiges of their identity. we do not have to argue about who is a real shaman. they will catch up. prophesy foretold of this. all we have to do is be an example, quietly work with the spirits on behalf of the earth and our relations. if we stand and proclaim our rights to use the word... we look like egotistical idiots in my opinion. we are shamanic practitioners. we do the work of shamanism. our clients know we are 'real'. who cares what the indigenous think of us? we earn our respect by being who we are.

melinda


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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:22 pm
Posts: 46
Location: Western USA
In my foolish mind if you can journey to the other worlds in an altered state and work with spirit helpers in non-ordinary reality (NOR) to bring about desired changes in ordinary reality (OR) then you're a shaman, and if you can't work in NOR to bring about desired changes in OR then whatever your race religion creed or culture you aren't a shaman. All the rest of the distictions are culture specific definations or just plain modern day PC foolishness. Dennis


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 Post Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Twice I met the tuvinean delegation of shamans visiting europe. At the first visit I asked them about their point of view, regarding shamanism here in europe. They all were very clear in respecting our european ways of shamanism as valuable and as powerful as their own sibirean, tuvinean way. I was recognized as a shaman by three of the four shamans of the first delegation (those who I had the opportunity to get more acquainted with during the meeting) and in the second delegation it was all the same as in the first one. But I do not call myself shaman. I am calling myself "bannsaenger" (which is "spellsinger" in english) and "condordancer" which are the two main things I am doing during shamanizing. Technically spoken I am a Vulture-Shaman, but a terminus technicus does not fit to the real thing, it merely describes a scientific point of view of the things we are doing.

I hope I got my point clear. For me "shaman" is a rather technical term, I myself have a different name of what I am. However, I am shamanizing and thus I am technically a "schamane". By the ways: In germany shamanism is being recognized as vital by at least one scientific instance: the IGPP.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 am
Posts: 22
Location: London, England
Here I was hoping to hear about these here plastic shamans, after all the teasers, and no such luck. :cry:

Because, think of the advantages! :wink:

1. a plastic shaman would be wipe-clean and wouldn't stain, no matter what herbal decoctions, sacrificial bloods, or strong cups of latte she spilled on herself in moments of clumsiness;

2. a plastic shaman would have a positive survival advantage in rainy northern Europe, as well as the entire rainforest region, as he'd be rust-free and not susceptible to midges etc;

3. a plastic shaman could be mass-produced, and made available at Costco, Walmart and Tesco, making that vital leap in mass consumer awareness from scary esoteric person mumbling in the jungle, to desirable lifestyle accessory, something that would surely be advantageous?

Think of the transition - evolution - in movie viewing, from costly event attended on special occasions and at fixed times, at a far off location (the cinema), to small plastic DVD player giving us all 24-hour home cinema capabilities, for a fraction of the cost.

Literally, every home could have one!

4. plastic shamans would be able to apply a little heat and re-form themselves endlessly whenever the need arose, something I note many flesh-and-blood shamans are too rigid, to do.... :roll: :wink:

All that said, I reckon - bring on the plastic shamans! :lol:


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 7:19 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
lol!!

plastic shamans are starting to sound like vinyl playmates. :lol:


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 Post subject: plastic shaman
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:35 pm
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Location: hyperspace
there is no such thing....all shamans are allowed to be..


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 7:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Recently I had a harsh encounter with people that claim for themselves that they are the ones who are having the right to blame others being "frauds" or "plastic-shamans". It is interesting to read how those people are thinking anything outside of traditional lines of transmission is per se plastic or fraudulent. And it is a shame for those people, too: they hang on dusty ashes of traditional things and they fear the fire.

I was being blamed a misuser of traditions because I use a quechua name and refering to a prophecy in one or two articles, besides the fact that I am refering to Harner, whom they think is a plastic and exploiter of Native Spirituality.

That discussion I had taught me one important lesson: That traditions are sometimes a burden, and often only the ashes left from the fire of the spirits. Even if it is right to point out that there are some around exploiting it does not give anyone the right to judge the others path of spiritual life. The term "plastic shaman" was coined among them who actually think that those plastics exploit Native spirituality.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:35 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:50 am
Posts: 44
Location: Pennsylavania
I figure its time to chime in on this one.

Ever notice how when people bring up plastic shamans it generates a lot of anger? I have pondered this for quite a while.

Mostly it happens with medicine men and women from the US. I think a lot of it is the deep down fear of what has been supposedly stolen from them.

'You cannot charge for Spirit!!!!!!" I hear dozens of times.

I tend to remind people that my time is involved. My gas money is involved, my materials are involved. My ceremonial room is involved my electric is involved and so on people get the picture.

Here is another reminder. Most indigenous shamans are supported by the community. Are our doctors and pharmacists supported by their community? yep.

I usually hear but they (shamans) do other things to pay the bills. Yes I agree. But how many effective shamans do you know who work 60 hours a week with another 40 hours of commitments to family, friend’s maybe other hobbies who are open for business?

I look at it this way.

I spent an enormous amount of my time and dedication to acquire my skills. I spend my time helping people. I could choose to do something else.... I bought the plane fare I made offerings to people when I had zero money. to those who had a lot less.

I am in the process of keeping the energy moving. It gets transferred from one spot to the next.

I did some work with a person recently. after it was done and the energy exchange happened a funny thing was said a couple months later.

"wow all the hours you spent talking to me and helping me along makes your rate about a dollar an hour"...lol I had to laugh.

I would say about 100% of what ever I charge gets moved into other things. Helping others, paying for my own travel years ago. Buying wood, consumables and so on. Not to mention sponsoring others to go to other gatherings and so on. I even sponsored someone to go to equador.

My point is it is all energy. I think that at the core people think "plastic shamans" are trying to hold it.

The very people with the most anger are the ones who are not supporting the people who should be supported and free from distractions to carry on the traditions. Let these folks have more distractions and I assure you there will be less trained people to carry on those traditions.

what traditions would you like to have the availability to learn from someone?

How to help the sick or learn to flip burgers?

The shamans who are available 7 days a week are helping more than the ones who are have to hold down full time jobs and a hundred other distractions.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:58 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Central Texas, USA
Nova,

You had me laughing at your reply. I truly can see the benefits of a plastic shaman now. :P

Release of seriousness can be difficult for me sometimes, but when truth shines out through the lies, all I can do is laugh and let the unknown flow through. :wink:






Travler1400,

I think you may have hit the mail on the head, when you indicate that it might be fear (or at least thoughts) that someone else thinks a "plastic shaman" is holding all the energy... Almost like energy or life is finite.... and if one person has it then no one else can have it?

It is a difficult road, when we live in a time of living three or four lives at the same time. And you seem to be living that way very well. On one level, it seems, the rewards are at the level, we recognize as traditionally human (food, shelter, affection, acceptance, romance, adventure, eduction, focus, success, etc.). And on another level perhaps the rewards are immediate, in terms of the condition of our soul and connected souls, that we are here to serve. If that is so, then living so many lives simultaneously shows our mastery of living and shapeshifting, and tests our ability to create and recreate the environment for transformation. And also creates a flexiblity, a resilience, a softness, and a completeness within our soul. :roll: .... at least that's the way it looks to me right now.


So, thank you both, very much. Both posts took me to a place that is non-traditional and expanding, and doesn't leave me mucking around with "what do you think?" Instead, they move me to a lighter place, where should I so choose, I can view the world and my human actions from a different point of view.

Sincerely,


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:36 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
there seems to be a drifting of what the term "plastic shaman" means. or perhaps it's that the term as i'm familiar with it is not the only way it's used.

AIUI a plastic shaman is a person offering ceremony and teaching medicine of a way whose elders have not given them passage to do so. AIUI a plastic shaman may claim a linage of teaching that is not verifiable or is not accepted in the NA tribal paths that the plastic shaman claims to be representing.

what does that mean to those of us who are spirit taught or spirit led? not a whole lot if we aren't going around offering other people's ancestral ways and ceremonies as something that's for spam.

which isn't to say that i think charging for aid is wrong. i've come to the opinion that many people simply don't value anything that they don't pay for. so it's entirely possible that charging for one's time places a real value on the results from the client's perspective.

frith & bliss,
Crowfuzz


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 Post subject: Medizinmann in Europa
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:23 am
Posts: 12
Location: luxembourg
Apu Kuntur wrote:
Recently I had a harsh encounter with people that claim for themselves that they are the ones who are having the right to blame others being "frauds" or "plastic-shamans". It is interesting to read how those people are thinking anything outside of traditional lines of transmission is per se plastic or fraudulent. And it is a shame for those people, too: they hang on dusty ashes of traditional things and they fear the fire.

I was being blamed a misuser of traditions because I use a quechua name and refering to a prophecy in one or two articles, besides the fact that I am refering to Harner, whom they think is a plastic and exploiter of Native Spirituality.

That discussion I had taught me one important lesson: That traditions are sometimes a burden, and often only the ashes left from the fire of the spirits. Even if it is right to point out that there are some around exploiting it does not give anyone the right to judge the others path of spiritual life. The term "plastic shaman" was coined among them who actually think that those plastics exploit Native spirituality.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur



you have a good point
www.indianermedizinmann.com

native medicine man


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 Post subject: medicine man
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:48 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:23 am
Posts: 12
Location: luxembourg
crowfuzz wrote:
there seems to be a drifting of what the term "plastic shaman" means. or perhaps it's that the term as i'm familiar with it is not the only way it's used.

AIUI a plastic shaman is a person offering ceremony and teaching medicine of a way whose elders have not given them passage to do so. AIUI a plastic shaman may claim a linage of teaching that is not verifiable or is not accepted in the NA tribal paths that the plastic shaman claims to be representing.

what does that mean to those of us who are spirit taught or spirit led? not a whole lot if we aren't going around offering other people's ancestral ways and ceremonies as something that's for spam.

ALL I KNOW IS THAT ALOT OF PEOPLE TALK BUT HAVE NO IDEAL
WHAT THERE TALKING ABOUT;
I WAS TRAINED BY MY ELDERS AND IM LAST TEACHER IN MY CLAN
NOW I TEACH THE WAY; THE BIG PROBLEM IS WHEN OTHER TRIBES
TRY TELL ANOTHER TRIBE WHAT TO DO
AND THIS BEEN GOING ON ALL THE TIME
I LIVED IN INDIAN VILLIAGE MY WHOLE LIFE WAS TRAINED AND LIVED WITH
WOODLAND DUCK CLAN BUT ALLWAYS I HEAR MEMBERS OF OTHER TRIBES TRY TELL ME WHAT I CAN OR CANNOT DO
I DIDNT SEE THEM WHEN I WAS GROWING UP THEY DIDINT TEACH ME
I DO PRACTICE OR TEACH THERE CERMONYS


which isn't to say that i think charging for aid is wrong. i've come to the opinion that many people simply don't value anything that they don't pay for. so it's entirely possible that charging for one's time places a real value on the results from the client's perspective.

frith & bliss,
Crowfuzz


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:23 pm
Posts: 1
Wow...for me. We are all energy based,, so to give a title to one and not another seems silly.
There are many phrases in different languages that do not translate well..so our ancestors did the best they could explaining.

If we look at science the Dawn of man started in Africa...so we all come from there...we all have the power

It is a right we have as humans,,,just some societies accepted them more than others...

We are being called back to the ONE..no matter what special title you call yourself


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 pm
Posts: 260
Location: NW UK
Part of me agrees with Melinda (the thread starter) that the very word 'Shaman' carries with it, so much baggage, it is less problematic to simply call ourselves practitioners. The term 'neo-shamanism' is somewhat unpleasant too, making all western practitioners sounds less capable or less real.

Getting over the need, one way or the other to use the term 'Shaman' is more the issue really. To be honest, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference what someone calls you as long as its not rude and you can actually do the job. Those who seem so desperate to call themselves 'Shaman' may be missing the point especially since, depending on where in the world you are, the name may be nagual, medicine man/woman, sangoma, maribu man, boo, ischanuk, cunning woman, or other culturally specific identification.

What I do REALLY agree upon, however, in relation to the term 'plastic shaman' is the missuse of culturally specific ceremony, rites and ways by those who do not originate from that culture. My teacher has given me pretty specific teaching on this and it boils down to the fact that those of us alive today in the west, through no fault of our own, have all but lost our shamanic/animist heritage. Our Elders are all in spirit and we struggle to reconnect to it all. Even aboriginal peoples in Australia and South America now have gaps in their spiritual history. Some of the really important stories are lost for ever. For westerners called to this work, some are also called to train with 1st nation people where they learn rituals, ceremonies and ways which are not of their own culture. However, when they return to their native communities, the land spirits, people, ancestors and nature spirits there do not understand or relate to the mythology which underpins such ceremonies and ways of working.

So, it is necessary for westerners to adapt their learning. Those who are fully initiated into a system different from their own, know this and tend to honour the ways of their different communities in different ways. The problems start when someone spends a couple of weeks or months with a 1st nation teacher, does a sweat lodge or a peote or ayahuasca ceremony and then thinks they can call themselves 'Great pooping Eagle' or whatever and dispense half understood knowledge to unsuspecting spiritual seekers for big bucks.

The whole thing about charging is interesting. I have been told to make a suitable exchange because to give away for free a) lessens the value of something to the receiver and b) leaves the client with an energy debt. My payment may be a feather or a pot or money, it really depends what spirit tell me is appropriate for the client. Sometimes it may be easy for a client to just give you money but they will find healing by going out and finding that feather!

The whole 'needing to be called shaman' thing is more in the mind of the person, lets face it, what does it matter? And the plastic shaman thing, I do understand why 1st nation people get cheesed off with this. Nobody can fully understand their myths the way that they do, nobody else can BE who they are and it must be pretty bloody annoying to see unknown people claiming things which simply are not true.

There are one or two people on the 'plastic shaman lists' though, who are the real deal and there are politics going on between tribes, as has already been mentioned, that the rest of us don't necessarily know about.

The world has always had scam artists, charlatans, snake oil sellers and false prophets. Its part of our human learning curve to sometimes fall for the tricksters game. What all this plastic shamanism has done, however, is to raise the profile of NA spirituality, as they say, all publicity is good publicity.


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 Post Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:19 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Isael
The cultural context in which a specific shamanic practice exists is indeed important.
But as the spirits teach me, its not as important as the practice itself which is beyond a specific culture or religious belief.

Shamans in western society refer to themselves by using this name, because its the closest name they have for describing thier role.
The name 'shamanic practitioner' seems quite demeaning to me.
Since always a shaman is a role to which people are called, regardless of thier sex, culture, or origin.

For me a 'plastic shaman' is a person who has no right(given mostly by spirit) to identify himself as one, and yet does it anyway.
Or else, a person who claims to work within the context of one kind of traditional 'shamanism'. And in which he has not been trained.

As for myself, I'm kind of a weird case of being related to a specific kind of 'shamanism' to which I have no cultural connection.
The spirits educate me in the way of- and as a seiðmaðr. I am not an heathen or a neoheathen, but it just so happens to be this way. Probably got some norse spiritual\physical genealogy in me.
I accept it because in a way it can be like someone being taught by hebrew spirits how to become a Prophet. A title which does not exist anymore, and in a way replaced by the more "minimal" role of the Rabbi. And yet, although belief system and dogma change, spirits see things differently than humans do.
Needless to say that I will never claim to be a traditional seiðmaðr. Only spirit taught.


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