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 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 5:21 pm 
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Location: Julita, Sweden
>HalomOsher: Shalom. Wou7ld you like to tell us a bit more about how you were initiated into seið? Maybe in a thread of your own?


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 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:07 pm 
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hälsningar, WhitTiger.

My intiation into seið has just recently begun after being intiated as a shaman. It would be quite some time before I'll have things to tell. All I'm told right now is that I'm to be educated in this particular path.

Are you native to sweden? do you regard seið as a part of your spiritual heritage? Do you practice it yourself?


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 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Location: Michigan
[quote="Traveler1400"].... it generates a lot of anger?......

Mostly it happens with medicine men and women from the US. I think a lot of it is the deep down fear of what has been supposedly stolen from them.

'You cannot charge for Spirit!!!!!!" I hear dozens of times.

I tend to remind people that my time is involved. My gas money is involved, my materials are involved. My ceremonial room...."


Hello,
In North America the Anishnaabeg do not charge for any ceremony. That is against tradition. The Spiritual Practitioners are living in such a way that the practices and ceremonies are a natural part of their life, and no extra expense is involved. They have nothing to sell. If someone, or a few, decide to give the Spiritual Person a gift, or pay an honorarium, or give traveling money, or support that person in any way, that is a good choice. The Community does support the Medicine men, the Pipe Carriers, the Sweat Lodge guides, etc., they are housed and travel expenses are covered etc. But they have nothing to sell. There is no fee for services. That is the good way. Others have set that person up and acknowledged them in their position, they do not stand up and label themselves. What they are is obvious, or it is not authentic. They do not ask to sell anything or be paid. They accept what they have become, and give what they have the same way the earth does, like a mother suckling her child. She does not ask for payment, the Earth does not ask for payment, and the Medicine Men, Pipe Carriers, and others do not ask to be paid. That is the way it has always been. You cannot force a gift of any kind. A gift can only be given or accepted, not enforced.
Bouvette


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 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 6:36 pm 
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"Earth does not ask for payment, and the Medicine Men, Pipe Carriers, and others do not ask to be paid."

I am not yet ready to serve my community. But when I will be, I think that whether I'll charge for my work or not will be decided by the spirits.

In my opinion, being a fully practicing shaman inside a cultural structure that supports him- is practical without charging. But being a fully practicing shaman(as apposed to someone who has time for another job) in a society in which money is needed in order to survive, is something else entirely.


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 Post subject: Real life and taxes
 Post Posted: Tue May 12, 2009 7:31 pm 
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HalomOsher wrote:
"... being a fully practicing shaman(as apposed to someone who has time for another job) in a society in which money is needed in order to survive, is something else entirely.


I wrote about the Anishnaabeg here in North America, they use real money to live! They have taxes and SUVs. And they support the work of the Medicine Men, the Pipe Carriers. the drums etc.. I think to be a "full time practicing Shaman" you will need the affirmation of those you will be serving. or you will need "another job" as you put it, though I do not think the term "job" applies to the Spiritual Life. Working with others, they will or will not see your skills, and will or will not choose to support you in that pursuit. It is not really up to us whether or not we are chosen to live this type of life. Sometimes we don't get what we, personally, would choose.


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 Post subject: Re: Real life and taxes
 Post Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:31 am 
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
Bouvette wrote:
HalomOsher wrote:
"... being a fully practicing shaman(as apposed to someone who has time for another job) in a society in which money is needed in order to survive, is something else entirely.


I wrote about the Anishnaabeg here in North America, they use real money to live! They have taxes and SUVs. And they support the work of the Medicine Men, the Pipe Carriers. the drums etc.. I think to be a "full time practicing Shaman" you will need the affirmation of those you will be serving. or you will need "another job" as you put it, though I do not think the term "job" applies to the Spiritual Life. Working with others, they will or will not see your skills, and will or will not choose to support you in that pursuit. It is not really up to us whether or not we are chosen to live this type of life. Sometimes we don't get what we, personally, would choose.


Maybe this is so with the Anishnaabeg. But elsewhere people support only things that are being done. I mean, if they support their Healers and Specialists, regardless whether they shamanize all days through or not, then the shamans indeed get paid, as a default.

"Full Time Shamanism" is not common in indoeuropean cultures. They rather have to shamanize besides their mundane jobs, most of the time in order to survive.

This romantic "Shamans never take a payment" idea is not applicable everywhere.

What is so bad in getting payment for something you can do better then the rest? The exchange of energy is something very important for both sides: shaman and the one who visits him.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:05 am 
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Quote:

Bouvette wrote:

"I wrote about the Anishnaabeg here in North America, they use real money to live! They have taxes and SUVs. And they support the work of the Medicine Men, the Pipe Carriers. the drums etc.. I think to be a "full time practicing Shaman" you will need the affirmation of those you will be serving. or you will need "another job" as you put it, though I do not think the term "job" applies to the Spiritual Life. Working with others, they will or will not see your skills, and will or will not choose to support you in that pursuit. It is not really up to us whether or not we are chosen to live this type of life. Sometimes we don't get what we, personally, would choose."


Well in opinion its not a simple case of black or white. Different cultures have different approaches regarding 'payment'. One, I think, has to work within the context of its culture. And ours is service(money per hour) oriented. But more importantly, for me, is that its up to the spirits to decide.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that your real point is: Only a shaman who actually delievers the goods, so to speak(I would phrase it in non-capitalist lingo but my english vocabulary is quite poor), will then be acknowledged by its community. And only then will the community support his work. Its up to them to decide, right?

But consider this-
BearHeart of the lakota wrote in his book that many times he did not get paid for his services because ppl from outside his tribe did not know that he cannot charge but only recieve gifts for it(and it was good and proper to give gifts, almost as if there was a traditional standing rate for different services). Now ppl in western society know and value a system in which when someone performs a service for them, he must get paid. If that man says that he doesnt charge for it, then they may very well assume its free service and wont bother in giving him anything. Thats a bit problematic for someone who is to shamanize full time.

Also, its a bit besides the point, but consider the K!ung of the kalahari. In his work 'Boiling Energy' Katz tells about how the healers of the tribe use thier abilities to help those of thier tribe. But since thier name has competent healers has spread far and wide, ppl from other cultures come to recieve healing as well. In which case, the healer may consider to demand payment, while there is no doubt that healing for his own community is for 'free'.
After all, they all hunt, gather, and survive together. Its in everyones intrest that ppl will be healthy and happy. But when it comes to ppl from other tribes- this is not the case.

In modern society, we dont have tribes, its all about individuality. No one will take care of you but yourself or maybe your family. Its different reality than that of being a part of a tribe. Different means for survival must be considered where selfishness is a core value in one's community.

Sorry for blabbering so much, just wanted to express some of my thoughts on the subject.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:08 am 
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Location: Alexandria, Virginia USA
Payment is a medium of exchange that measures the worth of goods and services. If something is owed, then a vacuum and an imbalance in life occurs. Payment then becomes a value exchange that restores balance and harmony so all is equal and empowered. Our intent is to bring healing through this balance, not to maintain imbalances between us.

In paying the Shaman, you become aware of your value. Until you accept your own value, there remains the question: Am I worth it? By answering with payment, you change your world to be a place of gratitude, respect, equality and harmony.

I have no structured fee schedule for my work. However, "payment" is graciously accepted in several ways:
1. Gifting
2. Barter
3. Donations to specific charities or organizations
4. Personal volunteer time
5. Referrals

and so everyone benefits


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed May 13, 2009 4:41 pm 
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Location: Julita, Sweden
>HalomOsher I am not Swedish, but I grew up here and have lived here all my life. On my fathers side we are from northern Norway, on my mother's from the UK. No, Seidr is not part of my practice, though it may be in my spiritual lineage. I know people here who practice Seidr, but they are all part of the neo-shamanistic way.
I have no doubt that intitiation and instruction can take place purely through Spirit. Some of my own shamanic teachers received their knowledge that way. They can be seen at www.shamanicwarrior.com
I wish you well on your path of learning. Maybe we will meet someday so I can participate in a Seidr with you as the Völva. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Real life and taxes
 Post Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Apu Kuntur wrote:
Maybe this is so with the Anishnaabeg. But elsewhere people support only things that are being done. I mean, if they support their Healers and Specialists, regardless whether they shamanize all days through or not, then the shamans indeed get paid, as a default.


NO, I am sorry, I did not mean to imply the Spiritual Practioners are given free housing every day or fed every day, no not at all. They are people making their way through life just as we all are. BUying food, paying rent, and taxes. If they are asked to come to another place, then they are housed, as you would any guest you ask to come to you. They may be given gifts, that is good.

I am trying to say no one can buy what they have to offer, and what they have is given as a gift to whomever they choose. That is the way of it. A circle. Recently I attended a "Changing Worlds" ceremony for a friend who died at an early age. No one who did ceremony there was paid, Not the firekeepers who stayed all night for 4 days, not the Pipecarriers.. no one. The women made lots of food, it went on for days, the Spiritual People ate.. is that pay? no.. It has nothing to do with Pay, of course. Maybe some were given rides to get there. It is not pay.

The Pipecarriers open their bundles, filled with all the acoutrement of thier practice, but it is a point often made by them, that everything in each bundle is a gift, they did not make or buy anything in there.. it was all gifted to them by the people they serve. That is a good way to do it. They items belong to the people. It takes a long time, years, but that way the ceremonies they perform are truly a connection from the people to the spirits. Even the tobacco in the pipes is given by the people there at the time.


I hope that helps to show what I mean.


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 Post subject: Full Time Shaman
 Post Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 2:58 pm 
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HalomOsher wrote:
Quote:


ppl in western society know and value a system in which when someone performs a service for them, he must get paid. If that man says that he doesnt charge for it, then they may very well assume its free service and wont bother in giving him anything. Thats a bit problematic for someone who is to shamanize full time.


I have to ask a couple questions here.

What sacrifice does a "Full Time Shaman" make if he or she is being paid by the hour for Spiritual work?

If a person is so selfish they cannot give or recieve freely, how can they be benefitting from the work?

How can a Shaman freely move if he/she is restrained by the price paid and the expectations of the "customer"? Where is the loyalty? To the money/customer or to to the truth of it all?

Thank You, I look forward to any answers.


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 Post Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:24 pm 
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Answers:

Quote:
What sacrifice does a "Full Time Shaman" make if he or she is being paid by the hour for Spiritual work?


He must follow the path and dedicate himself to it. He must follow its taboos, restrictions, guidelines etc. He has suffered to become what he is, and will suffer more in case of denying his duties.
His duties come before his personal needs.

Quote:
If a person is so selfish they cannot give or recieve freely, how can they be benefitting from the work?


Even someone who is selfish can be healed. Maybe not to full extent, but still.

Quote:
How can a Shaman freely move if he/she is restrained by the price paid and the expectations of the "customer"? Where is the loyalty? To the money/customer or to to the truth of it all?


People have expectations for the shaman in every culture. He must be able to heal, bless ect... Otherwise, he will not be recognised as a shaman.
Its in each shaman's responsibility to find balance between royalty to the truth, and the needs of those who seeks his help.

I do get you point though, after reading the answer you wrote Apu Kuntur.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:35 pm 
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Quote:

WhitTiger wrote:

I wish you well on your path of learning. Maybe we will meet someday so I can participate in a Seidr with you as the Völva.


Thank you very much!

I hope to visit denemark sometime this year. This is as close as I think I'll get to sweden in the near future.


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 Post Posted: Fri May 15, 2009 4:42 am 
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Why Anishnaabeg have their way and others have their own is simply cultural. Let capitalistic worldview conquer that culture and it will change. They cannot continue their way if nobody gives the 'gifts', it will become impossible.

Energy must move, and without energyexchange, things become stagnant and very dead. In west, when there is no fee or pay, the service is regarded as free. At those cases nobody thinks, that a gift would be proper gesture. So abuse is born in a long run. The payment is not so negative as thought. Many gives 'the pay' gladly if they have received help.

And if people have other work and income, living is sustained. Free work may be done then and let people decide, if payment or gift is proper thing to be given.

If I compare tibetan monks, they do not even handle money. They beg for they food and bless the givers. Energy exhange do exist. But bringing same custom here to western country may lead great promlems. Here begging is illegal. We just have different habits and customs, and it's in individual to decide which suits.


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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:19 pm 
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I liked the list of bennies for the plastic Shaman although I like to swim and wouldn't want to become part of that plastic gyre in the North Pacific.

This starts with the word "Shaman" and alleged definitions(s). Most of the people I've heard give heated exchange on this were people who only spoke one language. English is my forth language and I've added two more. After you learn your third you see they are just another group of synonyms. Shaman is a synonym for a few things.

Plasic Shamans are the ones with no accomplishments of their own and stay in the masses where they sell worshops and regurgitate plagiarisms.

Getting compensated for aid and guidance is fine. Centuries ago we were brought food, livestock and firewood. Now people give us paper with dead guys painted on it.


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