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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:24 am 
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Thank-you for your feedback, Jim C, it is very nice to have one's efforts appreciated. You possess that greatest of treasures - an open and enquiring mind!

You have rightly emphasised the importance of going within to find wise guidance. Yet, the spirit(s) is/are also everwhere, and can speak to us thro all beings and all things when we have ears to listen and eyes to see. As the "shaman's prayer" -

Another fascinating - if to me a little queasy! - snippet on this topic is that some years ago I watched a TV documentary on sex and relationships which included a piece on the lifestyle of a narcissistic, sex-addicted "romeo" who was having frequent sex with several different women. He had intuitively become aware of the danger this posed to his health, so would always use a condom and then drink his semen to recycle the nutrients!!

Michael

"Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig!"


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:22 am 
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Hmm... How much a male can lose his semen until 'sexual energy depletions' and symptoms derived from that occur? What kind of diet leads best possible production of sexual fluids....

How much a person can storage sexual energy by abstaining from sexual activity, if any? What if a person can redirect the flow of sexual energy from base to upper chakras or not.

Maybe to somebody these questions really matters... But usually common sense is enough and quite good guide to follow. Like: if you get tired, rest.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:35 pm 
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I find it rather weird that pleasuring the own body should raise a health-problem at all. Reminds me on the christians that actually were (and often still are) enemies of anything that makes fun and is sexual.

Viewing various mythological figures obviously give us a interesting other perspective on all of this. So Osiris did masturbate, as well as Onan. In sexual magic there is also a branch of masturbation, and the Prayoga actually has masturbation, too.

Regarding any health issues at all: I am masturbating since I am aging 11 or so, now I am 40 and I cannot find any big problems of health or lacking of minerals or something like that. On the contrary: Within the last 29 years I fell only two times really ill. Usually I need only between 4 and 6 hours of sleep, I am more then only a little creative and multifaceted. I am masturbating often enough to be suffering of those legends if they are true.

If it is true that frequently masturbating and loosing semen would harm the health and all that, I would be the total opposite, suffering from malnutrition and being a shadow of myself. Thus something must not be true in those ideas, regarding energy loss and all that. Besides: I have enough friends around, being spiritual highly active, that masturbate frequently. None of them shows any signs of problems because of this - on the contrary. I seldom meet more healthy people.

Brothermichael: Do you masturbate?

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:58 pm 
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I would say like Apu Kuntur, that there are pleasures in this world. And of course, it is up to person if he wants to enjoy his life, including getting drunk with friends, and whatever comes into mind that could be fun to do.

I already had my period of ascetism, having very strict diet without any sugar, fat, candies, alcohol, coffee, tobacco, wheat, meat, dairy products, because of health problems. At that time I was not much intrested in sexual activity. But was it happy life - not actually.
To me experiencing life includes many things and not so much deniel anymore.
Like 100 year old person said, it was his bad habits, which kept him alive. He smoked cigars, drinked whiskey, played cars, but in sufficients amounts.

One friend is also having very much affairs, other woman every other week or so. He is looking fine, doing fine. Every person have their own way of living, and there is not much reason to judge others.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:07 am 
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For some students this can be a distraction or an anchor holding them to this plane,in the case of addictive personalities,it encompasses too much of their world and there for all worlds,you cant serve two masters so to speak,some can enjoy lifes little pleasures without it becomming their life,some cant,its very student specific,in my experience,the more dificult it is to set something aside the more it needs to be done,psycological attatchments can be very dificult to overcome,we think we need things,we dont,and sometimes a teacher asks us to do something that doesnt really have to do with us at all so much as showing yourself worth the time and effort,as far as being natural,most of us do have two hands,dont assume that somethings wrong because your asked to abstain.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:27 pm 
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Thanks, brothermicheal, for the interesting info on how some cultural traditions handle the complexities of spirituality and sexuality.

For those who seem to think he was suggesting that we need to follow those paths, I don't think he wasn't doing that. I think he was simply providing information for those who might be interested in following such a path.

My opinion on all this? If your guiding spirits tell you to stop masturbating, or stop having sex with ???what/whoever???, or stop having sex altogether - well, then, it might be wise to follow their wisdom. They can get difficult if we don't take their advice.

If such advice should come from someone other than your guiding spirits, in my humble opinion, it's none of their business. So, let the good times continue!


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:39 am 
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Also spirits may advise too do exact the oppositem My case was like that, having that ascetic period and visited a shaman due health problems advise was to have sex.
It may so, to raise overall level of kundalini, I do not really know why, but changing way of living was hard and took years to accept the pleasures after years of denial.
When talking about cultural traditions and, there are many. Others try to control their sexuality while others emrace it naturally and yet others sink into it more complex ways.
Any advises from human teachers based only on their own worldview and concepts of living may lead only more suffering. Teachers should be honered they say as well as old teachings, but best way is to take full responsibility of own life and listening none without critical mind and thinking if this is true to me. All teachers talk only their own way, talking about their own path taken.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:31 am 
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Chris wrote..
Quote:
For those who seem to think he was suggesting that we need to follow those paths, I don't think he wasn't doing that. I think he was simply providing information for those who might be interested in following such a path.


Thank-you, Chris, indeed you have heard accurately! So often we read/hear only through our own filters and projections - a constant risk in our metaphysical receivings, as well as our physical world receivings!

Metazen's original question was...
Quote:
Anyone know anything about abstaining from masturbation for initiation? What do shamans [practice?] and [what are] their views on masturbation?


I have endeavored to respond to this, not to tell people how to live their lives - I gave that up a long time ago - as I indicated in my footnote to my last posting! In Tibetan Buddhism [which incorporates the indigenous Bon shamanism of Tibet] the pig is a symbol for "illusion" [=self-serving ignorance], and "singing" is a common dreamworld metaphor for creative self-expression.

By the way, in case you have not seen it, there is a useful overview of "masturbation" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masturbation

You ask, Apu Kuntur, if I engage in autoerotic behaviour myself. Well, I will be 62 years old next month, so it has been a very different thing at different life stages and I will give you a quick overview....

Personal Experiences of Autoerotic Self-Gratification
As a pubertal teenager I started to experience increasing sexual feelings, physical arousal and "wet dreams". Like most boys, I soon learned that the - uncomfortable and distracting! - feelings of tension, passion, desire and excitement could be relieved and satisfied by "self-gratification". Also that afterwards there came a nice [spiritual!] feeling of
peace and harmony. As my partnered sexual relationships developed, there was less need for personal satisfying of these natural biological urges, but always occasional times when a partner was not available or motivated.

At the time I was not aware of it, but looking back there were occasions when I was using this practice, and also partnered sex, as ways to "self-comfort" when under stress, or when feeling depressed. Also I was using sex at times as a way to "prop up" my self-esteem, especially my self-image as a man and when my self-confidence was "shaky" or under threat.

In my early 40s, I hit some very big traumatic life experiences, and I experienced very high levels of stress, tension, misery, emptiness and low self-esteem. Sexual activity became an increasingly important way of "propping myself up"!

My ex-wife never has a particularly high sex-drive and the mismatch of our sexual needs became an increasing problem in our marriage. I became increasingly reliant on self-gratification as a way to cope, yet also was sinking deeper, over a number of years into episodes of depression and CFS [ME, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome]. Increased use of self-gratification was both a symptom, and part of the negative energetic dynamics, of my "spiralling down". At the time I had no awareness of this - I could only see my urgent, desperate needs and this easy way of meeting them.

Dismantling Neurotically-driven Sexual Behaviour
My life and marriage eventually totally fell apart [the "crisis and lysis" part of shamanic transformation] and the long slow journey of building a new life began, with the help of many wise and experienced teachers and many useful practices, both ancient and modern. Part of this "awakening" was awakening to the neurotic needs underlying some of my sexual behaviour, and I learned to postpone gratification [be it alone or with another] in order to expose, experience and transform the neurotic needs which were underlying and driving my sexual behaviours. I did not follow an ascetic path of total self-denial, but instead chose to work patiently and compassionately with myself in order to progressively disengage my neurotic needs from my sexual activity, and find other ways to deal with them e.g. other ways of nourishing self-esteem, other ways of releasing stress, other ways of cultivating inner peace.

Harnessing the Energy of Lust - The Abandonment of Self-gratification
In the last 5 years I have totally abandoned self-gratification. Not as an act of ascetic self-denial, but because I had learned by this time, the terrific advantages of MASTERY OF LUST ENERGY. I have learned to accept these powerful urges and to expand my energy-body to accommodate them, so that they were no longer "calling the shots" [literally!] i.e. dictating my actions. The end result is that I consciously take hold of this energy now, inflate my energy field with it [SELF-EMPOWERMENT], then wait until "Following The Path" reveals how it can best be expressed - sometimes in more meaningful, joyful, liberated and soul-nourishing sexual activity with my partner, sometimes in non-sexual, but very male-energy ways that enrich, nourish and fulfill the lives of myself and others - expressions of harnessed sexual and frustration energy that are often just as exciting, self-actualising and magical as sex, and without those "negative kick-backs" that can sometimes follow the "temporary high" of satisfying an urgent and intense feeling of sexual need or desire.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:00 am 
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Everyhings seems to go on periods, phases of life, youth, middleage, elderhood. It is so common to have crisis around fourties, it is so common. Maybe it's purpose is to shift person into another phase like puberty does.

When tantric sect as a form of taoism is introduced as a possible answer to Metazen, I think only fare to intoroduce others, like Grigori Rasputin, kown mystic and healer of his time, who had very strong sexdrive and lived by it, not conserving sexual energy at all.
Although he studied khlystic sect, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khlysty
which was separate sect from christian orthodox church. They studied sin and penance at their meetings, where they believed they could get most near to god.
I think their idea works. Many have experienced most humbleness, when they have done something really wrong and regret they ever were even born. That kind of penance may carry more near god.

Idea may seem provokative, but the world is full of different methods to come near god. Some go through pain, while other through pleasure, but the both aim beyond them. Pain or pleasure exists only in duality, while oneness only bliss (so people say).


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 Post Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:22 pm 
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..greetings,
most interesting subject..
Surely self pleasuring, and sexuality in general, is a natural act which can be used to switch states of consciusness, to change our levels of energy.
It is a most powerful tool still shunned by our cultura/moral upbringing.
Sexuality is often put in the center of the human wheel, as it directs most basic needs. As any muscle, the more it is stimulated the better it functions.
Even if I am not young anymore, at times I masturbate even a couple of times a day, until I don't feel the drive anymore and cool down. I simply try to follow the messages from my body, without strains.
Excessive ejaculation, like any extreme, can be detrimental to the health, but it can bring benefits for a more serene and relaxed attitude.
Is there a moment in the human life morepleasing, fulfilling and complete than the orgasm? To become One with All, while transcending time and space..
It surely deserves to be investigated more..


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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:03 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:32 pm
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This is what happens when people want to take the short road to Shamanism, they come up with lame questions like this that get followed with even more nutty answers or even worse, outdatred regurgitated rhetoric for answers.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:25 am 
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Here's another question for the expert on shamanism - does spiritual arrogance have any place in shamanism?


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:42 am 
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Sure does. It helps weed out the white lighter new age flakes that take Shamanism 101 courses and go out to be teachers and have Sweat Lodges like the one in Arizona.

Isn't there supposed to be a "T" in the subject.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Was that the same Arizona sweatlodge incident where someone's over-inflated ego brought about their downfall?


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:03 pm 
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Maybe they didn't "masurbate" enough to get the energy flowing and afterwards have that feeling of peace and harmony that helps the lost boyz.


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