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Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
Yes 20%  20%  [ 32 ]
No 80%  80%  [ 128 ]
Total votes : 160
 
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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:52 pm
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Location: Washington, U.S.A.
[quote="eagle1"]I read on this board that many believe that regular folks can't be shamans unless they are born to a 3rd world country and study with indigenous shamans.

What do you think?

Please vote and explain why.

eagle1[/quote]

Peace be upon all.
Where do you think the first of the shamans learned shamanism from?
That is the Ultimate Source of reality, which is open to all.


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 Post subject: Looking for indigenous shamans
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:02 am 
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Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:56 am
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Location: Dubai
Hi Dreaming Shaman

I am living in Dubai, UAE and i am searching for indigenous Shamans if you know of any one in Asia please advise me . Many thanks for your help.

Regards

Rakesh Valsalan


dreamingshaman wrote:
:? I could vote either way on this, (because I've learned much from my Spirit Guides) but chose to vote for the necessity of studying with an indigenous shaman because, as a Native American, who has studied with indigenous shaman in many parts of the world, I see the difference in their level of power and understanding and the level of power and understanding of today's neo-shaman. And the difference is large.

How many neo-shaman can drum for 8 hours at a stretch and heal 8 people with SERIOUS dis-eases during that ceremony? I studied with Grandma Mingo of the Ulchi tribe of Siberia, and watched her do just that in the Kamlanya ceremonies. How many neo-shaman can take people into a Sweat Lodge and call the Spirits and have them enter the Lodge with blue, green, red, yellow balls of light dancing around? I've seen it when my old Medicine Man Martin High Bear poured Lodge - and because I studied with him, it's happened in my Lodge as well.

Neo-shamanism is a beautiful path, and some of its practitioners are powerful and wonderful, balanced healers. Many others are still children, playing at power. I'm still a child myself, learning as I go, and I've been studying with indigenous shaman for over thirty years. Many of the things I saw my elders do at will and upon command, only happen with me when the Spirits decide I need help. And yet, I wouldn't even have access to that if I hadn't had the incredible indigenous teachers I have had.

On top of that, there's a thing here about 'respect'. All the things neo-shaman practice came from indigenous cultures in the first place. To pretend they didn't, and yet to take their teachings without acknowledgment and a sincere desire to connect with and honor those from whom the teachings came, is disrespectful as far as I'm concerned. In our Native way, we always give credit to those whose teachings and lineage we follow. This keeps the boundaries clear, in this dimension and others. . . and not doing so continues to dishonor the Spirits who guide indigenous elders/shaman, the original peoples themselves, and to de-value their long, inter-generational wisdom, experience and connection to All Our Relations.

In a way, it makes them 'invisible' - which is something Native people have been fighting against all over the world. Part of the reason so many indigenous cultures are dying is because others usurp their knowledge, traditions and culture w/o permission in order to feed their own thirst and hunger, then claim that knowledge as their own from the position of ego. Meanwhile, the indigenous people fade away and disappear; their wisdom is discounted; they are stuck on reservations or meager land where they cannot practice their own subsistence living - and they die. We who live in comfort and use their teachings, have some responsibility to them, don't you think?

One can say they're practicing shamanism, and they learned their practices from the Spirits - but if you have any shamanic teacher at all on the physical plane, the things you are learning came from the original peoples, the ancient lineages. I can't agree with discounting that.

By using the very title of 'shamanism' one is claiming the wisdom of the ancient peoples, so how can one say there's 'no need' to study with and acknowledge them? To me, that's the heighth of arrogance and ego, and part of the reason that our planet is in so much trouble today. As long as we selfishly claim ourselves to be this or that without acknowledging and honoring our connection to All Beings, and that the knowledge we have received came from those who have practiced these ways for millenium, we're missing the point. We've forgotten that we are ALL part of the Web of Creation, and we are all connected and in need of each other.

Instead, if we want to take on titles like "shaman" and "shamanic practitioner", it seems to me that we need to be searching out those very cultures from which the wisdom came, acknowledging and honoring those who have passed down the wisdom and continue to share those teachings, and help them and their people to have everything they need to live in the ways that create balance and harmony upon our Mother Earth.

Otherwise, we're just pretenders, who are not fulfilling the true, Spirit-imposed job description that goes with the title. A 'shaman', in the ways I've been taught, is not here to glorify oneself. Rather a shaman's purpose is to help heal others; to do ceremonies to help balance Mother Earth and All Our Relations; to inspire peace and a joyful, loving heart in all with whom they come in contact; to journey with and for others to assist them in retrieving lost essence, so that those people can also contribute to the perfection of balance and beauty upon the planet.

So, while I do believe that people can learn shamanic practices without working with an indigenous teacher, I am saddened that many people would willingly miss an opportunity to do so because they don't think its 'necessary'. For me, its an absolute necessity. There's an old saying, "What goes out, comes around." If we don't honor the wisdom which created us, how will that same wisdom be able to honor us?


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 Post Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:41 am 
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I have to say that I find this a very interesting topic, for the simple reason that I am not (for various reasons) able to study with an indigenous shaman. For a long time I followed the path of an eclectic witch and with that learnt a lot, then I kept getting directed, by my guides (using various, very persistant means) to look into shamanism. I investigated it and kinda hasitly decided it wasn't for me. However that did not satisfy my guides and their 'reminding' kept getting more and more persistant and in fact downright annoying LOL. I got to the point where I exhasperatedly threw up my hands with a kind of "okay, okay, I'll do it" attitude. From that moment on, things started slipping into place and when reading/learning about shamanism, I discovered that I was already using many of the shamanic techniques described.

When trying to get some clarity on my path, I have tried approaching various 'shaman', which usually gets me a reply something along the lines of "yes you are on the right path, just study with me for XYZ amount of money and I can help you out" which really irritated me, cause I don't have XYZ amount of money to study with someone, I was just looking for a little guidence.

By the look of things, I think I will be able to find that guidence here :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:12 pm 
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Location: Sweden
I read in the beginning about seidr or seiðr wich is the original spelling. Sejd is strongly connected to asa and seiðskratti (wich means sorcerer. The "sejdkona" performs the seiðr, prepares himself as usual, builds a scaffold and devotes himself to his sorcery, with all its spells and evil-doings.

The original Old Norse says that Thorgrim the Nose prepared his seiðr “með allri ergi ok skelmiskap.” While skelmiskap means indeed ‘devilry’ or ‘evil-doing’, ergi features a man who has been buggered, so that it seems that Thorgrim the Nose received sodomy while preparing his seiðr. Many of the stories tells about sexual and human sacrifies. The seiðr is also connected to Norse Mytologi, the asàr such as Odin, Loke Frigg etc. Also runic magic is included. There is not much of this no longer.

But there is also the Sami-Shamanism wich actually survived the Christians and is still in practice. There is the shaman called Nåjd from noaidi wich means "the wise". These are the healers, and those who are more like the Native American Shaman.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:44 am 
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Location: London
I haven't been born with 11 fingers instead of ten, etc. yet I could easily journey from the very first when I "learnt" it and I was the most surprised how accurate everything was that I brought back to people for whom I did the journeys. It might be "in my veins", I might have been born with this ability....
What I know for sure is that I've seen many people learn the techniques during workshops and they could all master it. I would say that we are all spiritual being having a human experience, thus we are all encoded with the ability for any psychical aspect. Some people don't even get into contact with that part of theirs because they can't be bothered.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:24 pm 
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Hi,

No I don't think it is really necessary, but it probably depends on the person in question.
You probably know best yourself if you need a personal teacher, a real indigenous shaman, or if you can manage yourself (if you have enough self knowledge, and if not then you should go for the teacher option probably).

n1c0b


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:53 pm 
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I believe that learning from a Shaman is essential,I dont believe that were you live is as important as how you live,and being native is no indicator of good ability,finding the right teacher or Mentor is the most important thing.


Saoman Mariah


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:47 pm 
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I feel that we all have a calling spiritually, especially those of us who are in tune enough to recognize it and do something about it. I would love to work with indigenous tribes and learn their ancient ways, since those teachings have surpassed time since before any kind of recordings we have now. However, I wouldn't necessarily say that one has to work with indigenous tribes before they are a shaman; rather, I think it's just a very good way to deepen one's understanding. So "essential" yes, as I think it would highly accentuate and help all of our practices. Necessary? No. But I wouldn't turn that opportunity down.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 4:46 am 
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Location: NW UK
There is a distinction between a westerner apprenticing to a 1st Nation shaman/healer/medicine person thereby adopting their beliefs and culture and visiting a 1st Nation shaman who will share some teachings with you.

The more shamanic practitioners I meet and learn from, the more convinced I am that 1st Nation healers who practice within a specific culture and belief system (mythology) have an incredible amount of wisdom (rather than tonal knowledge) to offer. There is no need to appropriate elements or whole swathes of a foreign culture, it is the underlying or often hidden wisdom which is the real teaching and that is where I feel we, as western practitioners, often miss the point. For example, a couple of weeks ago I had the honour of sitting with a Mohawk sachem for a few hours, he related some Iroquoi teachings about Longhouse and their creation story. Far from needing to appropriate these teachings, instead his words have helped me to better understand my own culture and mythology, why language is so important etc. I learned a great deal from listening to him but I don't need to be apprenticed to the Mohawk ways.

Is learing from indigenous shamans essential? Perhaps not essential but highly recommended. We simply cannot gain thousands of years of accumulated wisdom in a single life time without their help but the difference between knowledge which is more commonly taught in western workshops (soul retrieval, extraction, journeying etc) and wisdom is the key teaching which we are often missing in the west.

Just my personal 2p


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:44 am 
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I have been working with indigenous people for over 40 years. I do not believe that "others" have more knowledge or capacity than non indigenous folk. The spirits are present for all of us. It has happened that in a tribal situation, I have been asked to help cure someone. Are we not all humans that are interconnected?!!


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:03 am 
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Location: NC
It's not essential, but it goes a long way to educate the new-to-shamanism westerner to the path of shamanism, itself, how shamans have been regarded--which by default includes how indigenous cultures and their spiritual paths have been viewed through the western lens (which is generally not in a flattering or respectful manner), and how the wisdom we are so eager to seek now requires respect for how it got here and has been kept here.

Be well.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:16 pm 
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Location: Southern Lake Michigan area
Define indigenous.

How long does a person and/or his/her ancestors have to live in place to be considered native? 10 years? 50 years? 2 generations? 7 generations? 100 generations?

Or is the definition of indigenous based on your relationship to the land? If you live off the land in one spot, breath its air, drink its water, and eat from its plants, does that not make you native to that place?

I grew up in Iowa for 22 years. But I lived in Chicago for 5 years. But I wasn't born in either place. And my ancestors are from Friesland, Zeeland, and Bohemia.

It is not about being native, but in my opinion being taught by natives does have a significant impact. It has had a large impact on me what I have learned from an Arapaho elder, and another elder who is Shawnee but mostly taught in Lakota ways. Likewise too, Peruvian ways have made an impact on me.

The significance of native teachers is that they help us (even natives) to set down the empire-culture war spear and connect with what we truly need to connect and in a good way.

A native elder (from the Southwest, not sure which tribe) once said of white men something like, "It seems as if the white man wants something. He seems always angry. We do not know what it is he wants."

What the white man wanted/wants is to reconnect with their ancestors, something which all people want, but everyone in empire culture forgets. When an empire (not just white people) invades an indigenous culture, they strike out, taking whatever they can, driven by anger and fear. What we must remember is that this is like a child who has been stripped from his parents. He lashes out in a temper tantrum, and over time forgets what he wants and why. Fear and anger drive him blindly, later leading to ego and greed.

When the inner child of an empire-driven individual is re-connected to his/her ancestors, the empire no longer drives them. They are instead driven by love, connection, and Oneness. Service, humility, and other benevolent traits surface, like the pure joy of a child at play.

Natives in the Americas are closest to their ancestors and their traditions are not as damaged as those of European descended peoples. As such, natives are some of the best teachers we have. But a person does not have to learn from natives. It is instead recommended that a person learn from someone who is capable of helping them find their own truth. In the end, wisdom comes from within. And within you is the blood of your ancestors. You carry them around everywhere you go. Honor them.

We are all related.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 6:43 am 
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My view on this subject is that although it is not crucial to your own spiritual work, I feel it is essential if you are serious about the work. I have met and spent time with Indigenous healers, medicine people, elders from all over the world as well as studied through books and modern workshops. I have friends who live on the reservations and have come to know many of their ways.

I feel that the Shamanic work we do as city folk would be enriched if we studied the Indigenous peoples of the world. This work we do came from these peoples who still practice the traditions past on through their ancestors in the same way for many generations. Learning these traditions and these ways from an Indigenous person is like learning from an Elder because they are passing the same information passed on by their Elders in the exact same way.

When we translate these teachings and add a twist and then teach it that way, then that student may change it, it becomes something else. This is why it is imparative to these cultures to pass the information the same way they received it. In the same respect the same depth of the meaning of the teachings is passed with it. These teachings are a way of life, not something we do at a workshop, or on a client.

We do learn from our guides most of all, but from my experience of working with the Indigenous cultures, I would not have learned the depth of the work if I had not met the Indigenous people I have met or spent time with.

So my answer to this question is "Yes" it is essential to learn from Indigenous cultures.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:54 am 
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Ora , I enjoyed your (loved) reply! This site and the people who are freeing there SPIRIT and living there truth shows that more and more people are awakening, as they say there , SPIRITS. I like saying freeing there SPIRIT from there mind and start thinking and trusting there heart :) . IS learning from indigenous shamans essential? That depends on if the indigenous person is a real shaman? What is a real shaman? Just because the person is indigenous dosen't mean he is able to teach you or anyone else about shamanism or about SPIRIT ,GOD ,GREAT SPIRIT or about healing themselves. The truth for me is that we are all connected together. And theres alot of people confused about this subject or truth because of all the different cultures ,ideas ,religions ,racism ,ego ,goverments ,money that seperates us from SPIRIT. And confuses and controls us from loving self which is SPIRIT which connects us all. In my reality we do have all the answers because we are all one. So it is not essential ! Many Blessings to everyone!!!!!!! JIM :D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Location: Arizona
It seems to me that we need to get beyond the either/or dualities as we evolve as new paradigm people.

We are all indigenous to Earth. The time when we thought of ourselves as completely separate culturally, nationally, religiously, and shamanically is long past.

Blessings..


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