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Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
Yes 20%  20%  [ 32 ]
No 80%  80%  [ 128 ]
Total votes : 160
 
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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Location: Michigan
Well said, dreamingshaman. Spending time with Native Americans who honor the teachings, just being in their presence, adds a new dimension.


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 Post Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:11 am 
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Location: France
I enjoyed reading Dreamingshaman's post. He has some very good points.
The problem with a singular question like 'Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?' is that one often tries to answer singularly as well. :?

I would say.... "No it's not essential".... but would continue with: "in the sense that one can do a form of shamanism without the help of an indigenous teacher/community."
But... boy.... what a difference does it make when one has the ability to go and seek out an indigenous shaman/community. How much more fibre, strength, depth, endurance, energy and power. How much more knowledge one can arrive at and meet.
of course, as crowfuzz said.... it's not a guarantee. You have good and bad spirit taught workers and good/bad indigenous taught.
There are also those who have been spirit and indigenous taught at the same time. I know some very good ones there. :)

When it comes to commitment... I've seen for the last year or so some people who haven't learned from indigenous shamans but who did do fire ceremonies for hours and hours and hours, all in support of each other and their communities. I've seen lits of Europeans (and a few Americans) who are taught by others and who were also spirit-taught ( a very common situation), and who could do some astounding things and had enormous commitment.

The problem I've seen with some drumming and healing circles is that they are not community based; There's no Tribe or Nation behind. So you get people of many different powers, dedication and knowledge. Some really have the lightning, others just come along and see and don't really engage.

Until the moment that western people (Euros, americans, ozzies, etc) don't get back a sense of belonging not just to the earth, but to a community that is grounded in the earth, things will stay dangerously feeble.

There's a great work to be done; I'm always amazed to see europeans who are looking towards being Native American, and completely being unaware of their own Ancestry.
Yet this does not mean that I say that all whites must do Celtic, Slavic, etc, forms of culture and spirituality... if someone is genuenly called to be an Inuit or a Zulu, well.... that's not for me to judge. LOL
As long as the show 1000% respect.

Dreamingshaman.... I am sad as well for the gradual plundering and destruction of indigenous cultures.
I hope one day all the Peoples will come and meet in the Great Circle, under the gaze of the Spirit and we'll meet as sisters and brother and recognize each other as such.

Glasdraoi


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 Post subject: Re: Is Learning from indigenous shamans essential?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 11:00 am 
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Location: London, England
MUSHROOM wrote:
If we take into consideration that the "real" teaching is done by Spirit and that Spirit uses willing "instruments", then it follows that a "willing instrument" need not be from a foreign 3rd world country.
Some indigenous shamans may have the advantage of thier culture and early inititation into shamanism. Learning from an indigenous shaman offers the student an opportunity to learn the shaman's cultural bias. That, however, is not essential to doing shamanic work.

TOTALLY agree with this!

I have no native indigenous shamans in my area (apart from in Spirit of course) and what value would I get by learning to use plants that only grow on the other side of the planet (ooh, those lovely air miles, let's save the planet by jetting around it in airyplanes) and learning chants, rituals etc in a language none of my ancestors speak and which has no meaning for me?

So yes, if it's there for you in your country, and/or you feel called to it (I was called to study in Peru at the end of the first phase of my training, and that was real and direct from Spirit) then it's great...

...But in the end, we can talk about people being taught directly by Spirit like that's almost second choice, but who taught the indiegenous shamans, all those years ago?

Their ancestors - sure. Who taught them though? :wink:

I did one very powerful and educational journey to the "first" shaman (specifically, as an archetype/causal factor, rather than being a specific person) and that was educational - strongly recommended in fact. :)

Also IMO, the fact that we are so ready to disconnect and despise our own society's offerings is surely part of the rift, seperation and sense of alone-ness that is at the root of many dis-eases in our culture?

I cannot imagine an indiegnous person automatically assuming some other tribe or nation must have better shamans purely because s/he doesn't get the result they expected from the locals...

(And sometimes, bashing one's head on a brick wall is part of life's lessons to us, but I won't go down that route... :wink: )

IMO the source of all shamanic practice comes from spirit, and from humanity's direct interface with it - my only caveat would be, not all Spirits are great and good and wise, so choose your teachers "over there" with at least the same care as you would a human teacher.


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 Post subject: INDIGENOUS SHAMANS
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:05 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:35 am
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Location: CUSCO - MACHU PICCHU
I see beautiful people all over the world, and many are following their own shamanic path. It will be a mistake if a father/grand father or who ever in a family was a farmer, that means that their children need to be farmers. It will be a mistake if some argue that because a mother was a cooker, her daughter also need to be a cooker; or if my father was a lawyer, I also need to follow his path?

What I mean with all this is that Human being is an individual and sooner or later will find the right path that has to follow. You see that some times the children of shamans have nothing to do with the path of the father/mother.

In the shamanic path, people do not need to follow necessary indigenous practices. I saw people coming to the Andes and being more respectful to this land and to the ancient wisdom deeply than the same indigenous ones. There is a lot of romanticism about shamans, if they are indigenous, it means that they are right? and the white skin are not?. I am not a white skin myself, and consider that human being is in essence the same everywhere.

From the Andes,

Mallku


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:46 pm 
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Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
well said, MALLKU!

very much so.


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 Post subject: inigenous...
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:26 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:03 pm
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Location: Iquitos, PERU
I currently live and study with a curandero, or shaman, in the Amazon Rainforest of Peru. He is an authentic curandero who has healed Cancer, AIDS, and basically anything and everything. He is truly an amazing person and I doubt there is anyone in the world quite like him.
He is not, however, indigenous. His grandfather was a samurai, his grandmother was from India, and his other grandparents were Peruvian. He is definitely not indigenous. He was born in the rainforest of Peru to a mother who was an indigenous healer, but he is not indigenous.
He is well versed in the indigenous tradition, as he studied with many different tribes throughout the rainforest. In my opinion, he is a true pioneer of the future of shamanism.
Many are being called back to the spirit, regardless of their race or lineage. We must answer this call, to fulfill our destinies and take responsibility for the direction of the human race.
The way to best answer this call is to find a teacher who has learned the wisdom of the ancients, the science of the spirit. This person need not be indigenous, but they do need to be wise in the ways of the spirit. Without the help of the countless generations before us, we would be like scientists trying to learn all there is without the aid of the scientists before us. We have this previous knowledge available to us, but it is in danger of disappearing forever, if non-indigenous people like us don't learn and embody its principles and express its laws.
What is essential is for all mankind to remember the truth of the spirit. We are all indigenous people, for we are all citizens of the planet earth. Are you ready to be a planetary citizen?


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:45 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:50 am
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Location: Pennsylavania
I decided to vote yes on this one. I have met quite a few book and cd proclaimed shamans. I think there is a lot missing from not studying with someone indigenous.

Here are the things I fee you miss.

1. You are not supporting someone who truly lives out in a culture where shamans are fully dependant upon.
2. You miss a genuine commitment. I am sure lots of folks will argue with me but when you have to skimp, save, and move schedules around, get a passport or travel and be at a location that might not be hospitable to clean sheets and a shower that shows some real commitment to doing whatever it takes to serve your path.
3. You also miss out on the physical experiences and even the body language. One shaman I spent time with taught me what it is like to genuinely listen. To have nothing on your mind with the exception of genuinely being tuned into what this person is saying.

I am sure everyone will chime in telling me how committed they are. I am not saying you have to live in a dirt hut for years and years. But I am saying get out of that comfort zone and really push your commitment to your path.

You will find that the results you get now are way worth it.

Traveler


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:34 am 
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Traveler1400 wrote:
I am sure everyone will chime in telling me how committed they are. I am not saying you have to live in a dirt hut for years and years. But I am saying get out of that comfort zone and really push your commitment to your path.

I hear you, but doesn't that risk excluding people who simply don't have the disposable income to travel around the world, taking time away from paid work?

If those things did become the expected pre-requisite of any shamanic practitioner, it may well leave it open only to the middle class souls who can afford four and five figure sums.

My personal reason for mentioning this is, I don't work in a full-time job any more, on the instruction of Spirit, so I can be available for my practice full time - as a result, I can't afford to pay rent here, while making no money whatsoever, and pay for flights, fees and accomodation just to learn how to use plants that aren't available to me in the UK, and invoke natural spirits that are specific to that area.

I have done some studying in Peru and some work with Spirit in n.America, which was indeed amazing (not least to be around people who took their shamanic abilities & responsibilities as everyday facts, not as something to boast/have inverted false modesty about) but it was an accessory, not something I see as the core to how I now practice on the other side of the planet.

From there I've worked mainly with mentoring and guidance from Spirit, and on the basis of that, I would agree with what you mention about "book & cd proclaimed shamans" - which I'm taking to mean people with a head full of theory and other people's experiences, anyway.

I got the chance to go to Peru as a result of a remarkable series of events, which were predicted some 2 months before in a journey, and on journeying since I've been told there's no need for me to search the earth looking for "it" - "it's already right here."

I'm sure we all have a different path to walk, different needs and gifts, and I think when generalisations come up, it's good to hear all voices.

Hopefully four generations on, we will have created some sort of heritage worth inheriting, and our descendents here in the UK, US etc will be established in this way.

My final concern is that the air miles and CO2 this kind of travelling creates seem to me, based on current thinking anyway, totally at odds with the shaman's duty to honour and walk lightly upon the earth, while serving their own community, their own locale.

Just my thoughts anyway, and no obstreperousness intended! :wink:


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:43 am 
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Location: Pennsylavania
Hi Nova,

Let me qualify that a bit.

I understand the finance situation. But I do have to say, if you are truly committed you will find the means to do what it is that you are committed to do.

If you are not able to fly off and drop 100k on a trip that is understandable.

But if you have the means to get off the couch and make a phone call or go to a gathering and you chose to be a couch potato instead, then in my opinion you are not serving the path.

As a side note. If the universe is pulling on you to go an hour away to something that is free and you cannot go then the invitation is there to fix that part of your life.

I am not sure if you saw my post about charging. But very recently after a couple showed up and gave me a offering I sent it as gas money to someone to come up and get some work done.

The universe will help you find a way to get to what you truly want.


Most popular conversation I have had.

Client "Hi I have no money but need work done"
Me. "Ok but can you at least make it here to get the work done"
Client " Ah no, nor do I want to try"
Me "Ok"

Invest what you can in your path, it is worth it.

Trav


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:31 pm 
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Traveler1400 wrote:
Hi Nova,

Let me qualify that a bit.

I understand the finance situation. But I do have to say, if you are truly committed you will find the means to do what it is that you are committed to do.


I agree with that. At risk of sounding like I'm contradicting myself, my trip to Peru (which, for many reasons was amazingly valuable) came about at a time when I was literally scraping by, earning my rent + about £30/week - it was a phenomena how it all came about.

So I agree that penny pinching isn't a reason to not seek out the training that's right for anyone wanting to walk this path.

My point though - as you may agree (?) - is that travelling to every ind. shaman, from Siberia to Syney, isn't going to make someone a shaman, just by virtue of that experience. Or by virtue of being able to PAY for that experience!

Quote:
But if you have the means to get off the couch and make a phone call or go to a gathering and you chose to be a couch potato instead, then in my opinion you are not serving the path.


I hear you there too - some people who trained with me, on the first (and, may I say, excellent) series of trainings I went to dropped out on the last bit - because they decided to go out that night...

I died, gave up my whole lifestyle I'd created, and a lot more than I really feel inclined to type on here about... so, yes. :)

(It was a great bargain, to fulfil my pre-birth stuff etc, just not one to take lightly... :wink: )

Quote:
As a side note. If the universe is pulling on you to go an hour away to something that is free and you cannot go then the invitation is there to fix that part of your life.
Ah, that'll be my event next Sat then! :D

From which I've had, a few tentative calls/e-mails, none of which have actually managed to commit - ouch! - a whole afternoon. (I'm not talking to/about anyone on this forum BTW)

Bearing in mind that I've led rituals and done talks at all sorts of places, I am so getting that "free" means "valueless" to many people.

I'm maybe digressing a bit, but this is my experience. :wink:

Quote:
Invest what you can in your path, it is worth it.
You're not wrong (IMO) - too many people won't invest anything because they want it on a plate, or not at all.

I died, anything that leaves someone short for a pair of Gucci loafers or sacrificing (sobs) a whole weekend! :cry: - can get the early bus home, IMO, when it comes to talking about serious shamanism.

So, I think we're on the same basic theme here, I was more talking about the "this year's project is shamanism" people I have met, who can afford the flights etc, and I most certainly wasn't dissing your personal path, because from all your posts, you seem to have sound integrity.

It's tourists & apathists who lead the market in a lot of ways - there's even a Complete Idiot's Guide To Shamanism doing the rounds for those with the required $/£ - for reviews, http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-G ... 002864364X

I've not read it so can't comment (yet :twisted:) but I have to admit the title/concept makes me want to heave.

Try The Complete Idiot's Guide To Brain Surgery/Obstetrics/Emergency Medicine... oh, arse! :P


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:12 pm 
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Location: France
Yeah the true seeker and Spirit Worker follows a hard path and goes deep. It takes time, energy, friends, a "normal" life (whatever that is). It takes your mind, soul and body. And, yep, it takes your life. Of course that doesn't mean that you have to go to an indigenous shaman far far away. Why would I go to Mexico if I'm German or Dutch? I'd rather learn from my own Indigenous Tradition, even if I have to spend my whole life to find out what that Tradition is like. My Ancestors are still here, the Land Spirits are and the Old Gods are as well. They provide info handy for my work. And then there there is historical and archeological evidence to be learned from as well.

Point is that, sure, Traveler is right about the effort, but I rather do my effort with my own indigenous culture.

W.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:00 pm 
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I voted NO in the poll. The spirits may choose someone who doesn't fit any of our parameters. And the spirits may teach that person. And that person may not have a clue as to what happened or why. And sometimes it is the spirits of the land or animals (life) who choose someone. They may need an advocate to petition others on their behalf for some reason we can not know and be willing to teach that person in exchange.

D


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:23 pm
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Location: Euclid, OH
I have studied and worked with a traditional Dreamer for a bit over 7 years now, because I am drawn to the traditional Dreaming. And yet, I believe it depends on what calls you, as to with whom you study.

We all learn from all the people and, indeed, every experience we have, if we are paying attention. I do believe we need, at the beginning, someone to guide us to help us understand what are our skills, medicines, etc., and guide us as to how we should proceed. Again, dependent upon how we wish to contribute, that should dictate the Teacher(s) we follow.

Hmmmm...so that is a Yes AND a No? - lol In the polling, I voted "no."

Crowtalker


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:48 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:26 pm
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Location: Mexico
Hello.

I vote NO, not necessary.
My teacher is not an indigenous person, and his wisdom is ample and profound.
No racism for shamans - pleaze. 8)


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Location: Seattle,WA
It depends. If you want to learn classical shamanism you will need to be taught by traditional people. :D


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