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 Post subject: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:28 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:29 am
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If at all.

Most bodies are automatons running on autopilot or pre-programming. Those who have the capacity to change themselves or the world are vessels for the entities which in various religions gave mankind knowledge and power, and that some are only occaisional vessels for the prupose of experiencing, witnessing or guiding another.

That people are not the only vessels for spirits and that on various realms spirits do not require vessels.


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:42 am 
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I guess it's one way of looking at things.


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Dante A. wrote:
If at all.

Most bodies are automatons running on autopilot or pre-programming. Those who have the capacity to change themselves or the world are vessels for the entities which in various religions gave mankind knowledge and power, and that some are only occaisional vessels for the prupose of experiencing, witnessing or guiding another.

That people are not the only vessels for spirits and that on various realms spirits do not require vessels.
As Gurdjieff understood, we normally function on auto-pilot. As a practitioner of the LHP, I see the ability to separate One's Self from the natural ordering of the universe, as one step towards breaking away from this automatic pre-programmed behavior and another towards Apotheosis (self-deification).

As Jung pointed out, what we perceive as gods, demons, devils, angels, djinn, etc. are ancient archetypal images embedded deep within our unconsciousness. Through symbolism and ritual we can bring these archetypes to our consciousness and when they are this is when ancient, hidden knowledge is transferred to us.


Is all Shamanism based on submission of Self to Higher Powers?
In the occult we speak about our Higher-Self / Holy Guardian Angel, is there an equivalence of this in Shamanism?


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:31 pm 
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There is a philosophical view point where one denies the existence of everything but the reality of their own internal thoughts and intentions. Even the outside world falls under speculation because there is no way to prove it exists as anything but a construct in our own minds.

There is a lot of scientific evidence to support this. After all, the senses are just bio-mechanical receptors that send impulses to the brain. Until that information is interpreted by the different parts of the brain, its pretty much meaningless. In that way, we all live a world of our own creation. We are the god of our own internal creation that is only loosely based on our understanding of the world around us.

Myself, I choose to believe in the external world. The Matrix world where everything is just a projection inside my head bearing little or no relative truth to the outside is just too depressing (I know my own biases are showing).

In fact, I choose to believe there are two world made of two kinds of matter. There is, of course, the physical world of the body where we spend out "waking" lives, and the spiritual world with which the physical cannot react. The mind, then, becomes the anomalous quantum side effect of the two parts of us interacting across the divide that should keep us separate.

But again, that is how I choose to see it.


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:03 am 
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Shamans,as I see it, are not obligated to follow a particular spirit-high or low.As far as I know,we chose the spirit/spirits,whom we want to follow.
However,I have encountered instances,in which people are attached to a particular spirit against their will.But usually,it is a matter of a mutual agreement [a contract between you and your spirit guide/guides].
To the best of my knowledge,most people have a personal Spirit Guide
or"Guardian angel",as some call it.But i have encountered instances were two or more people share a spirit guide.Usually our guides share our goals
and are there to help.
As to the archetypes;they are not just internal imagination.They exist within us,but also independently, outside of us.Anything that exists in your imagination and dreams,may also exist in the outer world,independently of your imagination.
The spirits,whom we follow;some were human in previous incarnations;and some were never human.They may be nature spirits,animal spirits and spirits from other planets and worlds.In regards to your comments about the humans, as an automated machine;yes,most people are on an automatic pilot most of the time,unaware of their behavior.But,we,humans,are meant to become aware of ourselves.That is how we evolve.
Yes,there have been many great guides throughout history,to help us;and if one gets help from one of them, one is fortunate.
There is a divide between the worlds.A separation of a kind.It is not the worlds that are separated,but when we are unable to perceive the spirit world,we feel separated from it.The divide is in our perception and also vibrational.We try to bridge the divide,directly or indirectly, through others.The Sage


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:30 pm
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Location: Montreal
Occultists were concerned with a kind of comparative religion. They tried to find truths across a spectrum. For the most part I guess they had good intentions but many people just wanted to make money and come up with their own belief systems. Someone like Anton Szandor LaVey is somewhere in the middle. Somebody approached him to write a book after giving lectures on the occult outside his doorstep and keeping a magic circle.. that included interesting people like Kenneth Anger... but he didn't actually like writing many books and kept a lot of his opinions to himself. He was a very private man...

I don't think you can understand thing from a purely occult perspective because they had ulterior motives with regards to what they will say. I think you should also look at the beliefs of indigenous cultures and see how similar they are across the board.. to really get a feel for the truth.

If you only listen to one voice they have many biases.


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:25 pm 
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Understanding things from and occult perspective doesn't mean caring what famous occultists from the past have written about. Books are not the source.

Or is the they you refer to a different they, the they that talks through such vessels and talk to me also? I think that a vessel which has many voices will not receive any information that is deep, yet I agree that the vessel with only one voice is limited to that voices bias, even if the voice entrusts deeper info.

Less info from more, or more info from a single controlled source?


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 4:46 pm 
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You're reading too much into what I said. All I was saying was that in the past occultists were attempting to synthesize the world religions. To some degree they succeeded.

but that,

they had a lot of biases and tended to brand it as something their own.

and,

Reading a book from an Anthropologist is way more informative than some occultnik trying to make a buck


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 Post subject: Re: How does this relate to shamanism?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:56 am 
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Troll_ov_Grimness wrote:
You're reading too much into what I said.


That happens if you speak with cryptic.


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