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 Post subject: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 1:34 pm 
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I've been scrolling through some threads here on SP and there seems to be some basic belief amongst a number of you at least that you follow and instructions from spirit(s) or otherwise expect consequences. I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. It sounds fear based (aka superstitious) and authoritarian but I would like to understand better since my perception could and may well be a stereotype or projection of my own prejudices.

Thank you,
Stuart


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2011 7:39 pm 
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No, you're perceptions are quite valid. There are systems of Shamanism that hold to those exact principals, where you are given a choice by your spirit allies to either 'shamanize' (a term I borrow here) or die, during the shaman fever visions. That is quite common in the Siberian and Asian systems like the Mudang (one of several regional names) of Korea with traditional roles mirrored in China.

But...

...you are literally talking about tens of thousands of individual and independent cultures and belief systems that. Aside from regional affiliations and interactions with neighbors (The Korean systems was influenced by Chinese Confucianisms), they have nothing in common beyond some superficial and incidental beliefs that APPEAR to coincide. Maybe they all diverged from some original "Proto-Shamanism" of earliest Australopithecus some 250 thousand years ago. Maybe not. Either way, the systems barely share anything beyond a basic animist core and a traditional tribal/communal office/job/career/ of a shaman (Which would have a far cooler name in the society and be much more culturally relevant than the generic term I use here.)

Now... as far as the fear you're talking about...

That gets to be a matter of some dissension even here. Remember, our superstitious ancestors lived in a hostile world they were trying to explain and understand. They didn't know about wind and water currents, or understand the difference between water and air so that birds can fly but we cannot, and fish can breath we we drown. The world around them was a hostile place full of fickle and ill fated spirits of place and thing that was in constant need of being appeased.

Over time, as man developed a sense of how things worked and gained better perspectives, the world around them changed too. As hominids learned to make tools, and our societies became proficient at farming and weaving, the hostile world was slowly tamed and we see that in the rise of more beneficial views towards spirits.

Do most people serve the spirits out of fear? No.

Do some? Yes.

Should you fear the spirits? Some of them yes.

Should you respect the spirits? Yes.

...There are no hard and fast rules to Shamanism. Firstly, there is no one "Shamanism" to have rules like that. So while you are correct, you are only getting part of the picture.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:28 pm 
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strmraven wrote:
No, you're perceptions are quite valid.


strmraven - wanted to say thank you for your reply and information. I guess I might have some questions here but might hold off till they are better formed in my mind.

Stuart


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:30 pm
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Location: Montreal
"The process of delving into the black abyss is to me the keenest form of fascination." - H. P. Lovecraft

See my signature.

I love horror movies.. used to read books about aliens.. I liked ghost stories... if you find it fun to be afraid that anticipation on the edge of your curiosity then I say you're in the right place

I suppose I'll answer your question directly...

No I don't follow Their instructions blindly but later I have sometimes regretted not doing so.

This is one of the intrinsic reasons I have joined this forum. I wish I had shaman buddies close to my own age to hang out with. People I can talk to about experiences like feeling...

under geas

thats hard to reconcile for anybody

it is for me.

I appreciate your concern.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:54 pm 
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i'm just getting to know many of the spirits. my primary ally, fox (sometimes he comes as ulysses), can be rather unpleasant...not frightening, but pushy and mean. there are some that i had to learn do not have my best interests in mind. i think the concept of the spirits being happy, friendly entities is foolish. i became interested in shamanism after a vision that removed fear, however, not created it. still, not every journey is pleasant.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:56 pm 
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in particular, i'm afraid of the eagle or hawk that keeps trying to eat my innards. whats with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:57 pm 
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sonoffox wrote:
in particular, i'm afraid of the eagle or hawk that keeps trying to eat my innards. whats with that?


The sensation of being devoured is a part of shamanic rebirth. The sensation and dream of that is not uncommon . Myself I never felt something so dramatic though .


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:14 am 
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In the way distant past (this life) i enjoyed my horror story or two not a life long fascination. Fear has been a driving force in my life though, no uncertainties about it. Regardless I've found a lot of strength in myself as well, though more of being resilient and not being as moved as others perhaps in similar situations (like dealing with spirits).

What I don't understand then about these spirits is the sacredness, the ritual, and what is it exactly that they follow. For a practice that is supposedly based on wholeness and healing it seems to me the actions of some of these spirits (not all) are pretty grim. Their tactics less then holy or divine.

I do realize everyone is on their own path to some degree and not everyone will have similar experiences. I find it baffling though that in my experience the spirits seem less then cordial and more then willing to assist someone in feeling even more miserable, sicker and disconnected if for whatever reason you can not always second guess what is right and obedient in their view.

Stuart


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 2:52 am 
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Location: NW UK
sonoffox wrote:
in particular, i'm afraid of the eagle or hawk that keeps trying to eat my innards. whats with that?


There is something deep within you which needs to change. This is a fundamental message since Eagle/Hawk is a primary messenger. This will keep happening until the change required is complete. Often this change requires that we do something too!

In answer to the original question, no, not blindly but through years of experience and knowing one's Spirit allies well trust is developed. So when they indicate something, there is rarely any reason not to follow what they show. Why would I need to question it if I trust them and to be blunt, they ALWAYS know more than me!

For example. I have had an old glass bead in my possession since I was a child. It belonged to my Grandmother and had strange writing on the sides. For years I tried to research the writing, was it runic or Celtiberian perhaps? If so, how old must it be and was it a protection charm or even a curse??? I asked my Spirits what I should do next to find out more about it since I seemed to be coming to dead ends all the time. He indicated, immediately, that I should just throw it away. Well, of course, my mind then suggested that this was perhaps a curse so I put it away but still went on researching. Finally I happened upon a bead collector and asked her about it. She laughed at my research and showed me dozens of these beads. All made in Czechoslovakia in the 1920's when Tutankhamun's burial was so in the news. They were fashionable and the writing was nonsense. So there you are. A very simple example of why I trust them because when they indicate something, it is true. Not all Spirits are like this so developing a trusting, working relationship is key.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 6:42 am 
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I found it interesting and beneficial perhaps that more responses came on this thread considering it's a few months old.

I'm not really even sure after all these years where I fit in spiritually or even for that matter socially ;). I do find an "attraction" toward the Shamanic path though I've done very little to actually school myself in it. It appears most of it is at a very personal level, meaning, the way it unfolds, the things we must do, how guidance develops all varies. I may just be judging the whole thing based on my own experiences.

It's taken me a really long time to even get to where I am now and it's not much. I'm still struggling as to why Spirit has been relatively harsh with me, albeit I still consider and am grateful for much it has provided in the way of comfort, protection and guidance. Sometimes it's easier to see the harshness then the other qualities.

An interesting thought , idea is that the Universe is my home, that my soul is eternal and that the Divine always has my best interests even if the worse has come upon me. It doesn't seem to get any simpler then that - instead of worry over hostile and dangerous forces all around we are simply at home in life eternal.

Stuart


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:45 am 
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It was a spirit's voice that whispered to me about Korea... I had already liked their cinema and some of their hip hop (odd for me since I like metal, but its pretty good). Eventually I found a link to shamanism through the entry for Korea on wikipedia and then reading about it I knew it was what I have been doing. I also have voices telling me sometimes encouragingly to clear school.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:09 am 
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Troll_ov_Grimness wrote:
sonoffox wrote:
in particular, i'm afraid of the eagle or hawk that keeps trying to eat my innards. whats with that?


The sensation of being devoured is a part of shamanic rebirth. The sensation and dream of that is not uncommon . Myself I never felt something so dramatic though .



Wow - I journeyed last week with the intent of loosing my Ego and this was also part of my vision. I was held down while Eagle tore at my innards.... I was told not to be afraid and to let it happen. Afterwards I was filled with orange / yellowish light and my abdomen was bound up with vines. I've been getting ego lessons from my spirits since. I thought the Eagle tearing me open was rather horrific and I had not planned on sharing that vision with anyone - such an amazing thing Shamanic Journeying is - to find these common threads. Just proves un-reality isn't so "un" after all, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:46 am
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I've been scrolling through some threads here on SP and there seems to be some basic belief amongst a number of you at least that you follow and instructions from spirit(s) or otherwise expect consequences. I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. It sounds fear based (aka superstitious) and authoritarian but I would like to understand better since my perception could and may well be a stereotype or projection of my own prejudices.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:26 am 
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strmraven wrote:
Should you fear the spirits? Some of them yes.


Most of them, yes, I find.


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 Post subject: Re: Do you people follow instructions blindly ?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:31 am 
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StuartF wrote:
I've been scrolling through some threads here on SP and there seems to be some basic belief amongst a number of you at least that you follow and instructions from spirit(s) or otherwise expect consequences. I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. It sounds fear based (aka superstitious) and authoritarian but I would like to understand better since my perception could and may well be a stereotype or projection of my own prejudices.

Thank you,
Stuart


I have found that the spirits of every shaman I meet seem to all have ulterior motives, save extremely few.


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