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 Post subject: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 pm
Posts: 260
Location: NW UK
Why is it not PC to talk straight?

What I mean is, when we are faced with something which we outrightly disagree with, why can we not just say so, without malice but simply to say what we feel?

There seems to be a generalised 'New Age opinion' that sweetness, light and gentleness will somehow make everything ok yet when I work with experienced healers and 1st Nation Shamans, they talk straight and their healing, advice, message can be downright blunt yet is always delivered with a deeper love which truly aims at facilitating healing.

I've personally been WRONG so many times in the past (and will be again in the future that's for sure) so taking a gentle, [[[[[hugs]]]]] and 'don't say anything to upset anyone' approach would be safer 'for me' but sometimes it simply allows delusion and inappropriate behaviour to persist.

Sometimes when I am working with a client I have to relay a message which makes no sense to me and which seems almost brutal, "Say NO to your Mother" was one example yet his problems were about his career. However, this jolt was what he needed to face the facts he needed to to change his life.

I love others enough to really want to be of use, not just a nice fluffy, feel good person who they can lean on for ever.

I also see the same thing here on this forum and other places on the net, if someone comes along and says they are the reincarnation of Jesus or the Greatest Shaman in their own Bedroom, there is either sarcasm or fluffy feel good 'don't hurt anyone's feelings' stuff. Why can't we say in honesty and integrity, "I'm sorry but I don't believe you are the reincarnation of Jesus because if you were, you wouldn't need to tell anyone"! Because we risk being verbally stoned by the holier than thou brigade who don't want to acknowledge that they don't believe this person either.

I guess what I am asking is why we feel we have to bite our tongues and say nothing or only something nice? Can we not speak our truth without malice and have an adult debate, even a heated one?

Certainly I would prefer people to talk straight with me rather than smiling politely and patronising me. Can we not be honest any more?


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:35 pm
Posts: 301
Location: Finland
This topic reminds me of somebody's dream, a nightmare, where he was screaming words "white noise". Being fluffy, polite all the time is being far from honesty - neglecting true feelings.

Showing them all the time may cause too many innecessary and sometimes childish debates, which nobody needs. Personally I prefer avoiding those. I try to be true with those people, who I trust, respect and know they can take critisism and feedback.

Those, who cannot, why to bother? We can choose with whom to work.

There are always those, who just want to patronize, show their good will and how wonderfull they are, but do you need them? I have too many times banged my head on wall, but nowadays I just not care. Everyone are not trying to be real and true, but lightheaded beacons of hope, great masters on universal love. In that process they try to be someting else, than their true self. They lose connection to reality and make their own. There is no room to reason with. It is waste of time trying to have any real discussion with somebody who's cup is fullfilled.

When somebody tries to tell something, what it takes to be heard:
a lecture of infinite love, mastery shamanic techniques, meditation, or one person willing to listen?

The trend seems to be that people are not so interested to be just present with their fellow beings, but working real hard to get superior status or feeling of themselves. From this activity "white noise" just grows. Also shamanic workshops are often just one way to make more noise.


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:09 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 pm
Posts: 260
Location: NW UK
Jusma wrote:
Showing them all the time may cause too many innecessary and sometimes childish debates, which nobody needs. Personally I prefer avoiding those. I try to be true with those people, who I trust, respect and know they can take critisism and feedback.

Those, who cannot, why to bother? We can choose with whom to work.
The trend seems to be that people are not so interested to be just present with their fellow beings, but working real hard to get superior status or feeling of themselves. From this activity "white noise" just grows. Also shamanic workshops are often just one way to make more noise.


Some very pertinent points. Speaking one's mind all the time does sometimes just bring unwanted 'childish debates' and can be way more harmful than useful.

This trend towards 'being someone' or achieving something, being recognised as someone special often seems to overwhelm the actual point of working in a shamanic way which, to my understanding, is to accurately communicate with the spirits for the benefit of the community. The practitioner is only a small link between the worlds and must be able to get out of the way so that the true message, whether comfortable or not, can be delivered.

To that end, who is the shaman? Do they have any justification or right to hold themselves or their opinions higher than those who they act as a conduit between? The very act of speaking out is perhaps an opinion based in a lack of humility???

Perhaps it all comes down to the difference between personal opinion and a message from the Spirits? The former demonstrates lack of understanding or humility, the latter demands acknowledgment.


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 3:02 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
I once asked someone if they would lie to make someone feel better or to keep them from feeling bad and they told me "yes." I have personally chosen another path which is to never trade a single ounce of my integrity for pounds of popularity. No, we cannot always avoid those who will make childish arguements or not be open to truth. Each one of us must decide where we will draw the line in the sand.


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:20 pm
Posts: 62
Location: Private
What I have seen in other forums where this subject rages rampant when its not festering just beneath the surface waiting to erupt into vicious infighting and backstabbing, is the most common held mantra "How do you judge the beliefs and personal 'truths' of another?" or the even harder to argue against... "We have enough people judging us already, how can you do it too?" (Like we're somehow betraying a sacred sanctuary that should open its arms to all forms both grounded and natural and... otherwise.)

In a 'community' (and I use the term loosely to refer to the greater collective of Wicca, Non-Wicca, Shamanists, Heathens, etc...) where a wide diversity of eclectic systems are diverging from traditional paths, being resurrected in one form or another through the imperfect interpretation of a foggy mirror looking back in time and then modified appropriately to conform to modern views of acceptance and tolerance, it can be difficult to draw a definitive line in the sand and say this is acceptable for these reasons; as such things are arbitrary and subject to individual (subjective and objective) opinions.

But, I do know what you refer to (having endured seemingly endless discussion on why vampires do not wear blessed holy armor while sparkling like diamonds in the sunlight coming to rescue the rare steak... I mean damsel in distress... on a pure white unicorn steed). I even read a discussion somewhere, that changed the nature of redcaps (blood thirsty British goblins who must stain their hats red with the blood of travelers, for if their caps should ever dry the redcap dies) to a misunderstood fairy that is only too happy to guide travelers through foggy nights safely.

But, as it was so eloquently pointed out to me by a friend in the Army... everyone has value, even it its only to walk point and take the first bullet so the rest of the squad gets a timely warning. Well, that's more or less how I see those who make a conscious decision to deny the realities inherent to our shared physical reality (subjective and malleable though they may be, there are still definable rules) to promote ideas and concepts for which humanity is still several million years of evolution away from (without intentional and direct genetic intervention), in a world that cannot currently support those "advanced" and "un-natural" traits they would have us adopt (whatever they are).


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 pm
Posts: 260
Location: NW UK
Hmmmm, interesting comments. Having always been the type of person who never wishes to cause distress or pain, I realise that when I was young some part of that was merely wanting people to like me, not wishing to become unpopular and avoiding confrontation. However, the older I get, the less important that is and sometimes there simply are no set rules with things like this.

Asking myself why I even care seems like a good place to start. If a client is kidding themselves about stopping drinking or if someone wants to call themself the reincarnated Buddha or a practitioner is teaching something bizarre to raise their profile, this brings up some major points. Is my response about caring or feeling threatened? If I don't care, I just leave them to it and walk away. If I feel threatened, I may respond with anger, absolutes or sarcasm. If I actually care, what then is the best course of action for all involved? THAT is then where a combination of experience, integrity and trust in my spirits to advise come together.

What I seem to be finding more and more often in discussions is that many spiritual learners are confused as to what constitutes sound, non judgmental but honest debate? Confrontation can sometimes be appropriate and dynamic not merely destructive but as soon as a discussion becomes heated many think it must be wrong.

Some of the most jaw dropping and profoundly enlightening (spiritual lightbulb) moments in my life have come from painful, confused and difficult issues being resolved by a sharp prod from someone else 'telling it like it is' so that I have to confront the REAL issue. Perhaps this is the true meaning of the Devil and his pitch fork? He is the bringer of pain and confusion which forces us, through necessity, to change.

Nah, I still feel that in the right circumstances without personal ego, the wish to score points or put someone in their place, then genuine honesty is appropriate.

Do I care enough about a stranger to offer them an uncomfortable truth at the risk of them not liking me? How strong am I? Is this one of the true aspects of love?


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 Post subject: Re: Calling a Spade a Shovel?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Well, truth sometimes is painfull.

I usually say what I think in plain, straight words. In the german scene I am a kind of enfant terrible, because of that. Doing otherwise is not my way. Combined with my own Bulletinboard I am often being named various insulting names and titles as a reaction - since twelve years now.

One component why people in those boards are more of the LoveandLight fraction in these things is quite surely the infamous "political correctness" which I am not a friend of at all.

The other part is rooted in the esoteric scene, the newagers try to be everybodies friends, what they never can be.

Yours

Apu Kuntur


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