Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Board index » General Discussion » Shamanism




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Apu Kuntur greets the community
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:31 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Hello there!

After all, there IS another Bboard on shamanism in english :P

I am shamanizing since 1991 and doing traditional angel magic since 1985, being a "bannsänger" (spellsinger) and Condordancer by calling. Running a rather elaborate Website on contemporary shamanism since 1997 I am also administering the oldest german Bboard on shamanism (and one rather quiet english offspring of it).

As easily can be seen I have the Andean Condor as Totem, familiar spirit, Companion and what else term you name this kind of spirit.

Always seeking new contacts I landed here.

Shamanic Greetings,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
howdy Apu Kuntur!
welcome to this place. it's a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

excuse my ignorance, but would you explain to me what "traditional angel magic" is?

there are actually quite a few boards on shamanism (in English) on the net, there is one at Beliefnet.com and occultforums.com, and theenigmaleague.net, as well as many private ones on myspace, as well as a multitude of e-mail groups on the subject. i'm hoping that this one will be special. that it will enable deep discussion of shamanistic practice by folks who actually do that practice.

though as i said to Maggie in another thread i don't want to discourage beginners. i've often found that in replying to others questions i see deeply into what it is that i do. and not that i'm anything here but another member. yet i have a hopeful feeling about this place. so we will see.

again, welcome, howdy, hello, pleasure, and all like that. 8)

frith and bliss,
Jackie


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Traditional Angel Magic is - to break it down to its core - the evocatory/invocatory practice of calling angels benevolent, malevolent and neutral in order to control the chaotic natural forces to achieve ones goals. There was and still is much misunderstanding in what it actually is in practice. Fact is that one of the most important works on this kind of angel magic was being prosecuted by the catholic church as early as the 13th century.

To speak in quite prejudicated terms: I conjure up good angels to control the evil ones in order to get them to achieve some of my goals. This is only little akin to the normal shamanic practice - today I am modernizing some approaches in this traditional ways: so I am contacting the spirits I want to work with and make myself familiar with them before I even think of attempting to materialize them - which does actually happen when following the old formulas of magic.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 48
Location: Idaho Falls, ID USA
howdy Apu Kuntur,
that's extremely interesting.

let me ask you, do you think that all spirits are angels of some sort? is "angel" simply a form that some people find more perceivable than spirit spouses, ancestors, land spirits, guardian figures, teacher entities, chaos beings, gods, animal allies, ect?

which is hopefully not coming of as belittling what you do. i find what you've shared thus far to be interesting. but i have been hearing a lot about angels of late and i'm curious as to your take on the question of perception.

frith and bliss,
Crowfuzz


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
No. The term "angel" is simply programmed by christian believes to be "beings that are messengers of god" - well. this rather narrow definition does not fit at all. The ancestores for example are not angels but ancestors, animal allies are animal allies and no angels, and so on. One exception: the so called land-spirits intermingle with some angels. What are you doing when you do not belief in god and meet angels then? This is my quirk on this. I am no christian and so I see them different. There are some different kinds of angels, some of them are unique some of them not, some more "powerful" some "weaker" and so on. Asking them they reply that angels are a totally different species then for example humans or animals.

An angel is a little bit difficult to describe. I think of them as conceptual spirits. Take the "angel of death". This one is quasi omnipresent, and everytime someone, something etc. dies, a bit of this angel is around, doing what is necessary for dying. It is the belief that when such beings would suddenly disappear the function is no longer available. So if this particular angel would disappear nothing and no one can die. Okay, this never happens but it illustrate the scope of these beings.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Mexico
Quote:
There are some different kinds of angels, some of them are unique some of them not, some more "powerful" some "weaker" and so on. Asking them they reply that angels are a totally different species then for example humans or animals.

mmmhhhhmmm... Could they be our protectors? Due to karmic laws they might have to serve us?

Something to chew on, eh?

:roll:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I never met any one Angel who was obliged to serve. Most actually choose this path, reasons omitted. Thinking that an Angel is a kind of spiritual slave that has to serve humans is .... quite insulting to them. It is easy to win the cooperation of lesser angels, but that is absolutely no sign for being enslaved without any choice left.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Mexico
...yeahhh, it's very interesting, isn't it?

For myself, I would not consider this idea too abstract... rather logical if we apply the karmic cycles. Then, angels are not "slaves" as you have put it, rather living out the consequences of (their) previous acts. Being OF SERVICE to anyone, I wouldn't name slavery, rather a sublime action.

Then at the other hand, there must be some kind of hierarchy or levels of "conciousness" between angel beings as well. That, at least, is part of the philosophy from Joaquin Trincado (Escuela Esenica).

As I said, something to "chew on"... 8)

P.D. An angel being "insulted"??? Doesn't fit into my conceptions... :shock: it's more a HUMAN emotion... and invites to profound introspective. :roll:


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Well, first off: I personally am not incorporating karmic ideas in my worldview or experiencing anything like karmic cycles spanning over one lifetime. Karma is something which is definitely restricted to ones lifetime here on earth. The earliest sanskrit-texts did not even mention Karma, it was being invented to harden the structures of the priests and the castes. There is a problem in applying karma in an argumentation like this: that time is valid in the other realms as it is in the Human-Time-Space-Illusion, which is proofable not the case. Angels and their ilk do not exist in the HTSI and thus do not live up any consequences of any proposed life before. They do not incarnate into HTSI to suffer the consequences as humans do.

Proofable it is because the experimental approach on Remote Viewing (which is one of my primary things I do besides shamanism in general) implys the Entanglement of Information over great distances, implying thus a non-locality and time-lessness which is being theoretized in Quantum Physics, and even proofed there in microscopic scales. Experience taught me that time and space are not solid argumentation base in discussion on beings not belonging to the HTSI (another Explorer, Robert Monroe, is exactly telling the same).

:lol: Well, sometimes I am not using the correct words. Insulting it is, when we are using human terminology. My fault, I am not a natural english-speaker at all and had much german around the last days, so my english is sometimes faulty. It is unthinkable for angels, because even the least of them has a complete different worldview then any human can possibly have. There is a kind of hierarchy, but it is a natural one and not one basing on power or some other human concepts.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:26 pm
Posts: 20
Location: Mexico
Happy Valentine's!

I appreciate your expressions and explanations.
Language "problems" are non existent as they are simply a challenge referring how we choose our words and then, how the other side interprets their meanings. A lot of space to play around... and discuss endlessly.

So true what you say about HTSI. The older schools seem to have not applied this. Currently I am re-considering the concept of Angel beings etc.etc., investigating into human material and utilizing also that what I channel.

Many thanks for your time and energy to open up horizons.
:)


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 2:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 36
Location: Arvada, CO, USA
Very interesting conversation. To get back to the question of Crowfuzz---I too have often wondered, how different are angels from other spirits, especially those we encounter in a shamanistic framework. Certainly angels existed prior to the Christians, the Hebraic tribes, and the rise of the Sumerians, and other Middle Eastern religions, or even the rise of the institution of religion itself at the dawn of civilization.

In other words, that angels were part of the spiritual universe even when there was no religion, only the spirituality that we today label with the Siberian based-term, shamanism.

I can certainly see a distinction between ancestors and angels. But how different are the various kinds of helping spirits. For example, an animal spirit may be experienced in numerous forms including as human. Is the differentiation of an angel, based on our own human interpretation of the experience of this spirit? Do the Christian angels appear to a jungle shaman as a bush spirit in the context he can understand?

I guess this could contradict the ancestral aspect of a totem, but if we look at it another way---what if a christian believer, alienated from his/her archaic indigenous spiritual roots, needed the help of his/her totem, that it would then appear as an angel?

Alas-----once again it is a matter of semantics, but something I have pondered----having experienced animal and other spirits, but not, as I understand, angels------though that seems to be a part of my wife's experiences.

Mountain Valley Wolf.


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
The appearance of an Angel is surprisingly interesting, when we loom around in other cultures and myths. One thing is obvious: the iconographic roots of their wings are very, very old and certainly not only in christianity of the middle-ages. I have seen etruscian graves with angel-sculptures, even the Mayas depicted some beings with wings attached to their back. The anthropomorphic forms are not everywhere the same, however: in china it is the dragon who is the angel there - with wings, btw., as can be seen in some images or the old paintings of them.

I have a genuine interest in these things, not only because I am educated in old angel-magic my whole life but also because I am a Vulture-Shaman. Vulture-Shamans or Priests were the original beings in old times, from whom the image of the human being with wings is derived (this single sentence is worth many years of research - not by myself, but by various scientists. My own interest derived from some images taken from me in trance, I do my own research for seven years by now). The "feathered Serpent" Qetzalcoatl is a rather interesting hybrid, as he is depicted either as a serpent (see the famous pyramid in Mexiko) or as a human, wearing a feather-cloak. Dragons are the angels in china, and even in the bible you can find some hints on dragons (and I do not refer to the Revelation but to the Tora).

So, how a jungle-shaman sees an angel? A interesting question. In the Andes the Condor actually has the job. The image of Garuda in India and Bali shows another image of an Angel, as the Peacock is one for the Yezids. So it depends on the traditional gestalt of "a messenger of the highest principle" or "much higher developed being then a human" - however it may be called.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:20 am
Posts: 36
Location: Arvada, CO, USA
Ah yes, the wings-----I did not take into consideration, the wings.

That is interesting and you bring up a good point. My wife could relate to that---her spirit animal is an eagle, and she has had visions of angels. She was raised in the Philippines and so she has a strong catholic background, which I always thought emphasized that. But you make a good point of the angel's appearance in all sorts of cultures.

Quetzalcoatl is interesting. The Lord of the tree---a personification of the serpent, the horned serpent of Native American lore, and the serpent that is so intricately connected to the axis mundi in all cultures. The winged dragon was also connected with axis mundi in Celtic, and European myth via its association with the well. The Chinese dragon lived underground, in water, and flew through the sky. The European dragon obviously had the same connection to earth, water, and sky. Quetzalcoatl, as such a personification, suggests that further north there may have been a deep connection between the horned serpent and the thunderbird----both deeply connected with water. In Australia the water spirit, the rainbow serpent, required the father sky to create from the dream world. The same horned serpent appears on the World Tree of Hesperides...

Would there be an opposite to an angel? I am referring to a duality--such as male-female, earth-sky, the celestial twins, or perhaps something like an earth-angel, sky-angel. Or perhaps the angel transcends duality. After all, the feathered serpent, and the dragon and other similar motifs all seem to have a dual aspect of earth and sky, through the element of water, and often fire.

Anyway----perhaps I got off on a crazy tangent----you just got me to thinking...

I wonder if the Japanese Tengu are angels. Tengu today are treated as monsters, but they represent such elements as the God of Thunder. They have an archaic connection to crow-like entities from China. And they are possibly related linguistically to the Ural-Altaic sky-gods, Tengere, Tengri, Tien, etc. And of course to shamans, the tenger (Buryat), for example, are powerful upper world spirits who provide help to them-----and is the Chinese word for dragon so different----Liang, long, loon, etc.? (Chinese for heaven is tian, tien, etc. the same root as ten). Perhaps these are all angels. However I don't recall if Tenger, etc, display wings in ancient pictures.

And since I have made all these assetions---I might go one step further----could there be a proto-indo-european-ural-altaic-sumerian connection between angel and tengere?

Mountain Valley Wolf


Top 
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
Posts: 181
Location: Bavaria, Germany
There are different kinds of angels but no opposite. Even if the term "demon" lurks in your mind, this kind of power is simply another kind of angel - one chaotic and difficult to approach. Angels (or dragons) can have both genders, none or combined, too.

Regarding chinese (asiatic) dragons: there are many different kinds of them around. Even some purely celestial ones.

Yes, the evidence available hints that there was a culture there, between 5000 and 9000 B.C. to which the roots of those images can be traced back. It was being called the "Watcher-culture" by Andrew Collins in his groundbreaking work on them: "From the Ashes of Fallen Angels" - a work I can redommend on this. It answered me some important questions when I began to delve into Angel Lore of the more archaeologic kind.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


Top 
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 14 posts ] 

Board index » General Discussion » Shamanism


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
 

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

phpBB SEO