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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:51 pm 
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May I ask how telling others that your soul is non human, how does this assist your living as a human here and now? How have you found working with others when you tell them that you are 'otherkin', does the honesty bring understanding?


I do not tell them that I am "Otherkin". I tell them what I am. That is a difference, because "Otherkin" simply is a generalized term. Well, this I tell them after they had experiences with me in some ways. First part of the answer is to give them an valid answer that fits Ockhams Razor. The second part: No it does not make live easier. But I am shamanizing since 1991, and doing traditional magic since 1982 or so. I am used to have no easy life.

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Do you feel that people who are narrow in their view of the world are helped by listing yourself as 'otherkin' or have you tried loosing the term and explaining some of your reasons for knowing that you are different, your experiences, dreams, memories etc and allowing them to come to their own conclusions?


I only use this term here in this board, because it was part of the header of the thread. In german I use a different term. Anyway, people that are such narrowminded ones have much trouble with all aspects of my life, like shamanism. I led them be as they are, as long as they are doing the same with me.

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I suggest that it is easier for people to be part of a clan or group with an identity rather than to feel isolated, hence the 'otherkin' movement but this will, as with many other fringe groups, attract those who simply want to be accepted into something unique as they see it. Is it not common sense to look at each person separately rather than merely accepting that all who use the title do so appropriately?


Ask them. I simply tell people what I am, when they encounter strange things when I do my job in shamanizing.

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My limited understanding of living as a human is that we are here to do just that. I'm not entirely sure what separating ourselves into sub-groups of 'human and non-human' will do to assist our soul's development? Hence why I ask, how does telling people that you are otherkin help you to live and assist others here and now?


Simply because something is your understanding does not imply that it is everyone else understanding, too. My lecture here on the Human Time Space Illusion is a different one then yours. Maybe it is much more different to yours than you can imagine so far. I have also a kind of job here.

Quote:
I guess what I am asking is why do we need another division, another group and another title? What does it do?


We are not all equal. Being an Otherkin is simply a clear and easy description. So why not?

Quote:
I would rather associate with people than consider myself somehow separate because no matter what, we are all here, right now to be human for all that means and entails. I have spent the better part of my life being and feeling separate and different, it is something that my life path has lead me to face, accept and overcome.


Yes, but you are no Otherkin, you are human with a human soul. I am part of human society and do not only "feel" different. I am different, but after I realized why (some years ago) I am much more centered then before.

Your english is sometimes rather difficult for me. I am native german-speaker. Although I am a fluently english-speaker I often do read things different then intentioned. Please note that.

Yours

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:26 am 
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Forest Child wrote:
Is it not better to associate with people than consider oneself somehow separate because no matter what, we are all here, right now to be human for all that means and entails. I have spent the better part of my life being and feeling separate and different, it is something that my life path has lead me to face, accept and overcome.


Could not agree more with that.

But, when the reason behind the feeling of separatedness is given a word, it may give understanding. The word may be used to describe, what and who I am without isolation - used like a name in purpose rather than drawing distinction (no, I never, ever call or represent myself as shaman, otherkin or alien, just by my name. What I wrote was to describe something)

I made a vision quest once, which answered at that time to my question of feeling different and not fitting into society. I was sitting on field and saw grass all over, I begun to feel and experience myself as grass too, a little taller than others, but still grass. There was no separation despite of the diffrence, just sitting and being grass amongs all the others.

Given a word to describe the difference does not necessarily change the fact, that we are all forming that great field where we sit. The ocean of grass does not change if one wave is higher or make it any better - that wave or ocean.

The question: Does it help to use that word (otherkin)? I think it may, if circumstancess support it, but usually it may cause more confusion. And the confusion usually comes, because the word is not understood and people may fear, what they do not know.

There is that difference, being open to everybody and just telling what he is, between trying to find acceptance from isolated groups, which tell you what you are supposed to be or think.

And should group thinking be encouraged - NO!!!!!
As forest child mentioned, there is too much insecurity. Just encourage person to be what he is - no labels - even the 'ordinary', it's a label too.
Do we need more divisions? It's paradoxal, diversion and complexity reminds me of life itself and being plain sounds wisdom.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:37 pm 
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I asked a friend of mine about this, her reply is as follows:

Quote:
I however see this as a part of being shaman , not otherkin.
Because: For me personaly there is no such thing as OTHER!!!!
We are all part of ONE!
Even if we came/ lived/ were at times from /in another realm/ dimension/ planet......
It is all one multiverse......

I am a part of the Universe (Multiverse)
and the Universe is a part of me.
YOU are a part of the Universe
and the Universe is a part of you.
We are all parts of the same Universe.
We are all part of God - Spirit -Great Mystery
and Great Mystery is a part of us.
God - Spirit - Great Mystery is INTERNAL,
not external, or somewhere out there or ....> other


It sort of sums it up for me. We are all expressions of the creator, regardless of where or who we were before this life. Whatever we may have been before, here and now we are human and are here to learn, grow and assist others along the way.

Nobody can know what another person experiences, nobody else can know who I am or what I was before this life but its the here and now that is really important or none of us would be here!


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:33 pm 
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Forest Child wrote:
I honestly don't know where I stand or what I feel about the term 'Otherkin' or the philosophy surrounding the culture.

Although I don't discount that there are those who have genuine memories or experiences which don't fit the 'human' norm, I would also urge some caution and common sense thinking.



It seem you have had very bad experiences of the matter and the term otherkin very irritating. I have found this forum quite a open and safe place. The caution you asked for, what do you mean by that actually?

The persons here seem to be quite solid, that non-human experiences could be shared, which are many, of plants and animals also. My friend have experiences of geometric beings too. Describing to others the experiences of being something else - what is the danger here actually to be afraid of, or cautious?

Is it just not to ancourage any wanne-be different activity? Insecure people would do it anyway.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:02 pm 
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Nice statement, but what does it have to do with the whole thing we are discussing here? It is a kind of meta-statement you can use for plants, animals and all that, too. And still they are animals, plants and so on. I only have a human body. The rest is non-human, it never was. I never stated that I was another being in some remote past-lifes. I do not like being reduced to a fluffy all-equalness. We are all different, all other to each other.

In germany we had a rather bad example in history, when a dictator did enforce just that all-equality. Humankind learns out from history that it does not learn anything from history.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:48 pm 
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Jusma wrote:
The persons here seem to be quite solid, that non-human experiences could be shared, which are many, of plants and animals also. My friend have experiences of geometric beings too. Describing to others the experiences of being something else - what is the danger here actually to be afraid of, or cautious?

Is it just not to ancourage any wanne-be different activity? Insecure people would do it anyway.


No danger of sharing experiences but setting up terminology, groups and labels then creates divisions which feels uncomfortable to me for reasons I've already stated.

Apu Kuntur wrote:
Nice statement, but what does it have to do with the whole thing we are discussing here? It is a kind of meta-statement you can use for plants, animals and all that, too. And still they are animals, plants and so on. I only have a human body. The rest is non-human, it never was. I never stated that I was another being in some remote past-lifes. I do not like being reduced to a fluffy all-equalness. We are all different, all other to each other.

In germany we had a rather bad example in history, when a dictator did enforce just that all-equality. Humankind learns out from history that it does not learn anything from history.

Yours, .


But plants and animals don't seem to try to live their lives as other things, they live as what they are. We all here have human bodies which suggests we are here to live as humans regardless of what we may have been in another time or life. Sharing these memories and experiences is one thing. Creating a separate 'them and us' group who's label is 'other' seems rather divisive and elitist. You say that I am not Otherkin, that I am human with a human soul. Not sure how you know that any more than I can know that you have a non-human soul. Its this sort of division that seems to underpin my argument.

The term 'otherkin' creates division, it alienates others and thats the problem I have with it, not the fact that some people have these experiences.

I don't understand the reference to Hitler, he wanted identikit, blonde, blue eyed Germans, his elite race to rule the world, he had no intentions to embrace equality in any way. My discussion is about treating all humans equally and not setting one above or beneath another. Hitler was doing exactly the opposite of what you say, he was enforcing his elite club and all others could die. And why did the German people attack other groups they feared? Because of the perceived separation, the very 'them and us' problems which I am concerned about here. Seeing all humans, regardless of their culture, age, beliefs or past lives, as equally important is far from what Hitler had in mind and all about what I am trying to say.

Apu Kuntur, I have not been attacking you personally but you seem to experience it that way. Perhaps its the language barrier but your words seem to suggests that you feel that being a non-human soul is a superior way to be. When I suggest that by being here, now in a human body must mean that there is something to learn or to gain from being human and part of humanity, that seems to threaten you and you reference Hitler! I do have a problem with the term otherkin because the distinction encourages elitism. Certainly it has made me think and consider things differently.

If we had stable cultures where people who were different were encouraged, nurtured and understood, we would have no need for groups such as otherkin. There would be understanding but not division, discussion and not separation.

I wish we could encourage this understanding. History does indeed show us that when people split off to form new groups, especially religious ones, it causes deep scars to society which rarely heal. The need to belong to a distinct group who share one's ideals and beliefs is a very human trait. We see wars over interpretation of doctrine and terrorism in the name of the Divine. I don't want to see yet another division especially when compassion and mutual understanding is so hard to find in the world. Surely those who struggle with this way of being are better served by encouraging compassion towards all? Haven't we seen enough problems when people create their own ghettos and fear between groups undermines all attempts to build bridges?

Thats why I struggle with the term Otherkin, not with you Apu Kuntur.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:53 pm 
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It is interesting what points you are picking up in your replies.

You invented the idea that it is a division when people realize that they are non-human in soul and thus try to find each other. They need such labels. When you are such a wise and developed individual that you do not need such things, it is your merit.

I was refering to your friends quoting which is a meta-statement. A plant is also part of the universe, as well as you or me. It is your invention to think that Otherkins that are coping with their Otherness in a world of humans, that tend to discriminate different people, is a mere attempt of elitism and such stuff. You are most of the time simply wrong in this (well, there are some out there, that ARE thinking in this lines ... - guess why I avoid them).

If you would be an Otherkin you would not argue in such ways. You would understand why Otherkins do this here and now. A simple parallel example: People who are gay. It is a interesting thing to look at the reaction of non-gay people when they are being confronted with gay ones. Do not try to tell me that those reactions are all nice ones. Now compare this with one that tells you that he is a demon, for example, or an angel. People that say "I am a demon" get a much worse reaction, usually.

Many Otherkin I know simply stay silent and out of the public. They FEAR the public because they are being discriminated by them. Look at your first posting here. What do you think does your "controversial" posting do to them? You do not exactly encourage them to discuss with you. It is not fun when people try to put you into psychotherapy or psychiatric clinic because of that what you are. Got my point? When Otherkin build up their own community they want non-Otherkins to stay out there because of that kind of reactions, at least.

Another point: Mostly we are telling people what we are. We usually do not say: "I am Otherkin". People like me say things like "I am a Werewolf" or "I am a dragon", never even mentioning this term "Otherkin" as a kind of self-definition. Usually it is an instrument of explanation in a longer argument, which tries to eliminate the usual reaction of being labeled crazy or wacko. You are hanging on this term only. This is weird to me and I do not understand this, because it is not the way, we think. Don't reduce Otherkin to some idiotic fluffies, which may have given you this impressions you had.

Hitler had his own idea of "equality". All things not fitting in it were being erased. I was very clear in this statement I made. Maybe you understand better now, why. This attitude can be found in "common people", and people like me are very sensitive to such things. Things alien to them they fear, but more common is discrimination. Interesting that you combined my reference to that what we all have to learn here. That was not my intention.

You do not understand people like me. I do not know why. Maybe you never experienced harsh discrimination by yourself. I did, because of that what I am. Look: I never have written here on this board, what kind of Otherkin I am exactly. Pride or Elitism is different to that.

Otherkins find each other simply because the label "Otherkin" exists, thanks to Internet. This eso-author Doreen Virtue coined "Earth Angels" instead. Well ... -

Yours

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:34 am 
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I think you make a lot of really good points there Apu Kuntur. Its true that people, myself included, do need to find oneanother and to learn and to cope. I guess that when I went looking for others like me, I came across both shamanism and otherkin. Both terms carry lots of baggage.

My confrontational post did not state that I disbelieved but was asking for people to consider the wider picture as I have experienced it rather than to simply accept it all. I cannot say otherwise. Perhaps as Jusma says, I have had a particularly poor experience with the otherkin community.

I felt that what you describe as a meta discussion was all part of the same argument. Are we not all part of the bigger picture?

I certainly don't consider myself

Apu Kuntur wrote:
such a wise and developed individual


FAR from it and I trust you weren't suggesting that. This discussion proves that! I haven't invented an idea of division, the otherkin community has already done that.

Many people, not just those who are gay or non-human souls stay silent about their lives through fear of what others will say or do. Most people conform because its easier and its how we are brought up, to fit in.

Apu Kuntur wrote:
Another point: Mostly we are telling people what we are. We usually do not say: "I am Otherkin". People like me say things like "I am a Werewolf" or "I am a dragon", never even mentioning this term "Otherkin" as a kind of self-definition. Usually it is an instrument of explanation in a longer argument, which tries to eliminate the usual reaction of being labeled crazy or wacko. You are hanging on this term only. This is weird to me and I do not understand this, because it is not the way, we think. Don't reduce Otherkin to some idiotic fluffies, which may have given you this impressions you had.


Just telling people what you are is very different from using the term 'Otherkin' and yes, I am hanging on the term because it has created a community which thereby creates a division. Telling people that I have experiences and memories of being something other than a human is going to ruffle feathers thats for sure. It is not in most people's range of experience to understand that. I think that the gay movement, however, is a good example of how coming together can sometimes be a powerful way to bring about change so perhaps I am wrong in thinking that a group or community will automatically bring about separation?? That said though, Gay rights were being fought for, not merely acknowledged. Gay rights had specific legal requirements just as those for women had with the feminist movement. Theirs was a confrontation to society for legal equality, would you say, in your experience, that is what the Otherkin community are aiming for too?

I can fully understand the point you make about not wanting to be put into psychotherapy etc. Again, its a shame that we don't have a culture that sees such differences as potential instead of problems. Treating each individual on their own merits is essential but this is why I have a problem with grouping everyone together under the umbrella, label or community of Otherkin since some people do, indeed have mental problems which can run alongside the metaphysical (and there I have direct experience of at least one individual).

No, I am not suggesting that this is the case with you. I suggest that we treat each person as an individual part of the larger picture and I thought that was what I was saying in my original post. If what you say is true, that few use the term otherkin as a reference but merely as a means by which to find oneanother, I can understand that.

I admit, I haven't had a good experience with otherkin communities and I fear that that some of the issues I encountered there do more harm than good in aiding acceptance of those with non-human souls generally but I do feel that the chance to discuss these things with you has helped me to work through these issues within myself. Thank you.

:lol: not sure about Ms Virtue, very fluffy stuff indeed from the copious publishing empire she runs. Perhaps she's right, perhaps its the only way to reach our fluffy society???


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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:43 am 
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Just as a quick aside, this is sort of what I mean by how a community creates division and how the otherkin community by its own merits, is now perceived by 'others'!

From Urban Dictionary:

Quote:
Kin to the Other
'Kin to the Other is a phrase that was coined by Jarandhel Dreamsinger as a reforming of the increasingly popular term Otherkin. The two terms are essentially equivalent, although they have somewhat different focuses.
While the term Otherkin has come to accentuate a disassociation with ones' humanity (albeit unintentionally), 'Kin to the Other was created in order to show that a connection to humanity isn't completely nonexistent within the Otherkin community.

In some places, 'Kin to the Other has come to show a sort of Holier-then-Thou attitude. However, in other places, Otherkin has come to show a general immaturity.
It's a no win situation, essentially.


I can understand that you don't believe that I feel any personal sympathy to otherkin but I do, hence why I also went looking long ago. But its this association with the perception as written above that makes me very sceptical of using the term.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:39 pm 
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Apu Kuntur wrote:
Nice statement, but what does it have to do with the whole thing we are discussing here? It is a kind of meta-statement


Yes, that is right, if I understand the term meta-statement right. It's purpose larger than give any discription of your or any other's being. Maybe it was more directed to Forets Child, who undertood the meaning. Thanks for precision.

I find it often hard to describe things by words, so I make sentences, which are not possible to understand right by taking them literally. Energy behind the form should be observed, not the form.


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:16 pm 
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Thank you to everyone contributing to this thread. I am finding this to be an insightful discussion.


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 5:36 am 
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At the risk of offending people who don't see the "Otherkin" phenomenon as an abnormality, I'd like to offer my understanding of it, from a shamanic perspective.

Many of you will be aware that, as a defense mechanism, souls can split into multiple pieces -- whether the trigger is a natural disaster, a car accident, surgery, or other traumatic event. What's important in this case is not the event itself, but its effect on the individual. Missing fragments may return by themselves; otherwise, a soul retrieval might be necessary.

In the meantime, one's body sets about trying to "patch things up" as best it can, with whatever it can. This opens the door to several things, including (but not limited to) "spiritual intrusions" and varying degrees of soul possession.

This is not the same type of possession depicted in movies, and some people go about their lives without noticing a difference. Other times, the presence of foreign bodies is more obvious and disruptive. For the most part, these are not malicious, but simply misplaced energies that have found a nice home. Shamanic extraction is a largely straightforward and painless process, although I would hesitate to make a personal offer of help, because I'm just beginning to learn it.

For more information on soul possession and its effects, go here. Wildspeak also has a great forum, if you don't mind being registered in more than one place.

Harry

P.S. I forgot to mention that, in some traditions, people are thought to have multiple souls. Stories of humans born with an animal soul do exist, and vice versa, but this occurrence seems to be uncommon.


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:43 am 
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Neiter I am possessed nor I want to be extracted from my body, which is my vehicle at this short lifetime. My soul is not shattered and I am not split into many.

I am shamanizing myself for many years by now (since 1991). Soulloss with its consequences is a total different thing than that, which is being discussed here.

So you have to rework your understanding a bit.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 12:57 pm 
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To be honest, although I'm quite happy to let people believe what they like & follow their own paths, I'm equally confident in my understanding, in this case. However, before getting defensive, you should note my postscript (P.S.), where I acknowledge another explanation. It is quite possible that you were born with part of your soul resembling that of an animal; though uncommon, this is not unheard of.

Non-ordinary reality is clearly different from our conventional world, but it is still governed by a type of logic. When in doubt, take a journey about it :D


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Cautha, I consider your behavior a little bit arrogant. You should consider a re-evaluation. Otherwise any discussion is pointless. I know perfectly with what I am born with, and I do not need anyone like you to tell me a different thing.

On the other hand: you can believe what you want. As long as you remain for yourself you can think people like me are that what you think of. But do not wonder, when someone does not accept your opinion, when you are talking about it here and now.

How long do you shamanize, and how many Otherkins you have encountered so far, in person?

Yours,

Apu Kuntur.

P.S.: FYI - I checked, rechecked and rerechecked anything I am saying, regarding my Otherness. I am no Teenie or Fluffy that finds it cool to be an Otherkin. Within the last 20 years I had more proofs and witnesses about that what I am, then many other Wannabe-Shamans ever could have (on their shamanhood). If I would suffer anything of that what you claim, people like me should suffer from, it would have been healed many years ago. Excellent shamanic practitioners regularily check on my status, which is a must in my job: You never know whether you get or loose something when shamanizing on clients or other stuff.


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