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 Post subject: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 2:20 am 
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I'm not sure how to best explain this question. I can only hope it makes sense enough that it can be responded to. For some reason I got to thinking about this today and well, I'm curious about other's opinions. Basically, is Shamanism fully compatible with modern technology and thoughts of such. For example does it make sense to journey with headphones on, or to leave an electric light on while doing any kind of practice? (Or perhaps a battery operated flashlight on if you happen to be working outside at night.)

These is, as I though in my still early understanding of the path am learning, a good degree of visualization involved in Shamanism. The same question of modern ideas easily applies here too. For example can we try to reach the upper world by simply stepping into an elevator and pressing UP?


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:40 am 
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interesting subject. I feel that as natural and old school you can do things the better. I wont use tapes to play the inipi song even though the one who showed me how to run a sweat used a old cassette player with the tape sometimes if he could not sing.

lighters are practical for lighting a fire even if its ceremonial. lots of tribal people I suspect also figured that out while some are traditional and will still use the old ways with flints and maybe firesteel.

in spirit world , in dreams I been given modern gifts. like flash light. however these are symbols that are given to me to show something and had I been traditional healer somewhere in the forest of the rain forest hundred years ago they would have given me something else. its just symbols.

I think its important to do the things you can without any modern means. no flash lights no lighters no plastic items and no headphones or tapes with drumming or ceremonial music and so on . I see it as important to relate to nature as much as possible and too much plastic and modern tools might disturb that a little.

but still spirit will most likely tell you things that relate to a modern world and will maybe pass on some symbolic images like cars or planes or flash lights whatever you can imagine and understand as a symbol they will communicate to you.

I think its too modern and too much plastic with a tape with drumming. however if its the only thing available and it works then we are modern world people living in a modern world and should take that in consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:56 am 
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Quote:
if its the only thing available and it works then we are modern world people living in a modern world and should take that in consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:44 pm 
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Blazewind wrote:
These is, as I though in my still early understanding of the path am learning, a good degree of visualization involved in Shamanism.


the visualisation your referring too in shamanism is more akin to scrying not being lead by the nose by visualisation tapes, when done correctly the instrument your using whether it be drum, rattle etc will induce the "seeing" while you play with your eyes closed, this experience is often called following the wind horse. their are forms of trance that you dont close your eyes but intentionally keep them open, which use things that move like a river, or clouds to ride on but those are more complex and probably not what your referring too.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:26 pm 
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I fully believe that the spirits are modernizing as our culture is modernizing.

Yes, think it makes sense to journey with headphones on, if that's the most effective way to attain a connection with spirit.

My spirit guide has taught me how to hear him in the midst of my daily activities. I think that's a form of modernization. Sandra Ingerman has written about the changes she has seen-- the "modernization" of the spirit that she has encountered in her practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:14 am 
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Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:17 am 
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strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.



Agreed! One thing i like ot do is become familiar with the personalities of non-living beings, inanimate objects. I find items such as old cars and antique furniture have some of the most amazing personalities!


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:24 pm 
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strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.


I agree with you. Though it certain does seem funny to some people in my life, I do see a type of personality to certain inanimate objects. My car, for example, is good and likes to go fast, but it seems to run best when treated nicely and almost resents comments like "you bucket of bolts." My computer acts up at times and funny as it is, I've noticed it tends to respond better to patience than me getting annoyed at it for freezing. Such situations with objects like this could well be a lesson in calmness.

Buildings and have different personalities too. Personally I'm drawn to old buildings. I've always known that if ever I decide to buy a house it will be an older one that I will fix up. They have a certain kind of energy and almost seem like if walls could talk they would tell stories.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Blazewind wrote:
strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.


I agree with you. Though it certain does seem funny to some people in my life, I do see a type of personality to certain inanimate objects. My car, for example, is good and likes to go fast, but it seems to run best when treated nicely and almost resents comments like "you bucket of bolts." My computer acts up at times and funny as it is, I've noticed it tends to respond better to patience than me getting annoyed at it for freezing. Such situations with objects like this could well be a lesson in calmness.

Buildings and have different personalities too. Personally I'm drawn to old buildings. I've always known that if ever I decide to buy a house it will be an older one that I will fix up. They have a certain kind of energy and almost seem like if walls could talk they would tell stories.


do these objects actually contain these characteristics, or are these characteristics we place upon them? i make puppets out of paper mache, and often times when i work with them to bring the "spirit" of the animal into the puppet they seem to have those characteristics but whether they really do or dont is solely dependent on being animated by the practitioner.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:55 pm 
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ShimmerSnake wrote:
Blazewind wrote:
strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.


I agree with you. Though it certain does seem funny to some people in my life, I do see a type of personality to certain inanimate objects. My car, for example, is good and likes to go fast, but it seems to run best when treated nicely and almost resents comments like "you bucket of bolts." My computer acts up at times and funny as it is, I've noticed it tends to respond better to patience than me getting annoyed at it for freezing. Such situations with objects like this could well be a lesson in calmness.

Buildings and have different personalities too. Personally I'm drawn to old buildings. I've always known that if ever I decide to buy a house it will be an older one that I will fix up. They have a certain kind of energy and almost seem like if walls could talk they would tell stories.


do these objects actually contain these characteristics, or are these characteristics we place upon them? i make puppets out of paper mache, and often times when i work with them to bring the "spirit" of the animal into the puppet they seem to have those characteristics but whether they really do or dont is solely dependent on being animated by the practitioner.


I think we put a lot of it in certain things ourself.

I have some Native american artwork that has a spirit connected to it. but my computer has no spirit and is not alive as such.

everything send out a energy that you can feel. but difference is in my opinion that a computer is made from things that come from mother earth and the energy is felt if you notice it but very subtle and its not alive same way as if you connect to a rock or a three in the garden this has a spirit you can talk to.

I am almost sure that a ashtray or a cola bottle wont visit you in dreams. where a spirit of a medicine bag or drum might .

also I do not consider anything as dead as such. all materials are returned and recycled by mother earth and will enter a new cycle at some point in time where some materials are much much more hard to break down in a environmental sane way. plastic and plutonium I wont exactly call blessed with a spirit of any kind but the material is still part of mother earth . like everything else is.

a friend of mine says that if we eat plants which we consider alive. and they draw water and minerals from the ground. and we end up in the ground when we die then its hard to find the exact place in that cycle where things stop being alive or dead.

I tend to agree with him on that .

I do feel a difference in a drum made ceremonial where a spirit is connected to it and a drum made in a factory . the one made by human hands and with a spirit connected to it I call alive like a other life form with a soul where as the other one I still consider to be alive in some way but with no soul .


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:20 pm 
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Are we forgetting that Spirit is outside of space and time and therefore all our ideas about what is old, what is new, traditional, modern, are just that, ideas? In my experience Spirit is present everywhere but we access it through our cultural and social norms and experiences.

However it is also my experience that the natural world is an integral part of shamanic practice and that Spirit is so much more accessible through the use of the natural - i.e. candle flame and fire vs electric light and heat - drumming, chanting and rattling vs tapes and cds - anything natural vs anything on a screen. The natural world holds much deeper and more complex vibrations than the technical world and so it can be used more powerfully and proficiently in healing.

Another way to look at it is to see, for example, that with a fire the source of the light and heat is right there, experienced directly. With an electric light the source of the power is miles and miles away and unknown to us, with the light bulb being a dim manifestation of this source. This then reflects our relationship to Spirit through the use of these things - the first is more direct and powerful, the other, although superficially close, is distant and only vaguely connected.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Geoff wrote:
However it is also my experience that the natural world is an integral part of shamanic practice and that Spirit is so much more accessible through the use of the natural - i.e. candle flame and fire vs electric light and heat - drumming, chanting and rattling vs tapes and cds - anything natural vs anything on a screen. The natural world holds much deeper and more complex vibrations than the technical world and so it can be used more powerfully and proficiently in healing.

this i very much agree with, working with the natural movement of the world around you is what makes the shaman practice unique from other pagan paths.


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:46 am 
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soulflower wrote:
strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.



Agreed! One thing i like ot do is become familiar with the personalities of non-living beings, inanimate objects. I find items such as old cars and antique furniture have some of the most amazing personalities!


True! There are so many things out there with distinguishable personality if your willing to look for it. Technology itself i think is merely a manifestation of the inner technology we already posses. Eg a camera can take a picture as our memory can take a snapshot. Our wireless networks are similar to our internal ability to feel each others emotions and exchange information without needing to communicate physically etc etc


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:48 am 
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ShimmerSnake wrote:
Blazewind wrote:
strmraven wrote:
Who is to say that technology is without spirit or mana? Both my vehicle and my computer have personalities. Though they are made by the hands of man and often with the use of machines, they are still the cumulative whole of their parts and imbued with animus (motion) through the use of energy. To suggest they have no anima (spirit), to me, is ridiculous.


I agree with you. Though it certain does seem funny to some people in my life, I do see a type of personality to certain inanimate objects. My car, for example, is good and likes to go fast, but it seems to run best when treated nicely and almost resents comments like "you bucket of bolts." My computer acts up at times and funny as it is, I've noticed it tends to respond better to patience than me getting annoyed at it for freezing. Such situations with objects like this could well be a lesson in calmness.

Buildings and have different personalities too. Personally I'm drawn to old buildings. I've always known that if ever I decide to buy a house it will be an older one that I will fix up. They have a certain kind of energy and almost seem like if walls could talk they would tell stories.


do these objects actually contain these characteristics, or are these characteristics we place upon them? i make puppets out of paper mache, and often times when i work with them to bring the "spirit" of the animal into the puppet they seem to have those characteristics but whether they really do or dont is solely dependent on being animated by the practitioner.


Who's to say the universe isn't doing the same thing to us :p


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 Post subject: Re: Any thoughts on use of modern ideas?
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:49 pm 
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I am perhaps a bit non-traditional in this, but I came upon it by chance, and the understanding grew from the experiences.

I used to either drum for myself, or when in need of a deeper trance, I ran a recording of myself drumming. At times I would simply use the rhythm of my own heart as a drum rhythm.

Though I have often used instrumental music, classical, chants, and the like, to raise and direct energy when working, I began to wonder about the real extent of power using music. While experimenting with the ideas I came to, I visited a family member who played a bit of trance techno for me. (This was, admittedly, about the time that trance tech started to be played widely.) I not only found the music to be filled with energy, with power, but also that it seemed to evoke the same responses that I had trained in while using various drumming techniques.

Now, it depends on my own mood, what state of mind I'm in and how far I must adjust my mind to be able to journey effectively, which sort of music I will use. I often use headphones to block out noise when necessary, as I live in an apartment with many children who play outside my windows. (Usually a delight, but children DO tend to shout and scream quite suddenly and startle me when in trance.)

The only piece of technology I won't have on hand is a clock. For me, timepieces in general are a tie to the physical realm and the concepts of time and space that are anti-thetical to the the spirit world.


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