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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:16 pm
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Nashoba wrote:
Forest Child, thank you for your thoughtful replies! I enjoyed reading your post and I believe that I learned from it.


You're welcome Nashoba.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 56
Forest Child wrote:
But you didn't ask for my opinion, you said:
ShimmerSnake wrote:
give a example of the differences between the two.


I did that. Then you say that I have not given you my own experiences, which I did:

Forest Child wrote:
From my experience, however, a lucid dream is one where we are aware within the dream that we are dreaming - it is not about control of the dream but we can make some decisions within the framework of that dreamspace. We can even re-enter the dream later should we need to.

Astral travel, on the other hand, like OBEs is often a deliberate and conscious way of entering areas of the Astral outside our own dreamspace.

The feeling is different I would say. Dreams help us to understand ourselves and situations we are coming up to. They give us mirrors and tools with which to learn and grow. To take control in a dream and to direct it entirely, quite apart from being unusual to have that level of control, doesn't allow the dream to unfold in a way that teaches us so learning to control within lucid dreams doesn't help us. Learning to deliberately leave our body, bilocate, OBE and astral travel to other places/dimensions is quite a different thing with different feeling and reasons for doing so. Does that answer your question?

If you feel that I am wrong, please do offer your examples to the contrary.


I also asked you to make your case and give your examples for them being the same but other than saying that they have the same methodology (which clearly they don't - one you generally enter into sleep (delta awareness) hence it is called lucid 'dreaming' and the other you enter as deep trance (theta awareness) so the methodology is not the same. Other than that, you cannot provide anything new, interesting or other than based on your own opinion, which of course, you are entitled to but it doesn't help me or anyone else to consider what you say with any credibility. Please, by all means, do offer some kind of in-depth analysis of the similarities and I will happily reconsider my own experiences in the light of them.

Please, either read what I write so that you can understand it or stop getting so irate. So far you have not offered a shred of anything useful or interesting and since there is little here for me to learn, this is where my interaction ends.


i cannot help how you read my words, however my words arent irate or hateful towards you im simply asking you to back up your statement that started this whole discussion in the first place, your the one getting upset im actually just trying to have a discussion with someone that has a difference in opinion.

ShimmerSnake wrote:
Forest Child wrote:
With regard to astral travel and lucid dreaming, they are definitely not the same and to suggest so implies a lack of experience in those areas.

give a example of the differences between the two.



they are the same because within a lucid dream i can do either, i have both found my body and walked the physical realm as a ghost as well as ive explored the "dream" realm. whether one is in theta or delta is irrelevent as both are states of trance, just like sleeping is a state of trance.

as i stated before your basing your opinion on speculation not first hand experience, and your stating your opinion as fact on nothing other then someone elses opinion. i cant take you or your comments seriously because of this.

also your explanation on what is astral projection isnt a explanation at all, so "from your experience" the only explanation you've given is a canned example of what you think is lucid dreaming which considering how much of your post isnt even your own words id be willing to bet that what you call your experience isnt actually that either.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:37 pm 
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FYI:

"A dream is on the dream plane. the experience is manifested by you subconciously or conciously. On the astral plane you are viewing things on the physical plane. If it feels like a dream its a dream most likely."

From dreamviews. A ton of useful info on dreaming and astral projection and everything in between.

http://www.dreamviews.com/wiki/Astral-Plane

I would just add to the above statement that when dreaming, your dreaming self or dreaming body is engaged, while astral traveling, your astral body is moving.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:24 am 
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Shine wrote:
FYI:

"A dream is on the dream plane. the experience is manifested by you subconciously or conciously. On the astral plane you are viewing things on the physical plane. If it feels like a dream its a dream most likely."

From dreamviews. A ton of useful info on dreaming and astral projection and everything in between.

http://www.dreamviews.com/wiki/Astral-Plane

I would just add to the above statement that when dreaming, your dreaming self or dreaming body is engaged, while astral traveling, your astral body is moving.


i cant believe people swallow this tripe, you and the other person need to actually learn how to do this so you can see for yourself how incredibly bad the examples your giving are...

i think im through with this site, very few here seem to have any clue what the hell their talking about but are just shoving shit in corners.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:42 am 
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Posts: 15
ShimmerSnake wrote:
Shine wrote:
FYI:

"A dream is on the dream plane. the experience is manifested by you subconciously or conciously. On the astral plane you are viewing things on the physical plane. If it feels like a dream its a dream most likely."

From dreamviews. A ton of useful info on dreaming and astral projection and everything in between.

http://www.dreamviews.com/wiki/Astral-Plane

I would just add to the above statement that when dreaming, your dreaming self or dreaming body is engaged, while astral traveling, your astral body is moving.


i cant believe people swallow this tripe, you and the other person need to actually learn how to do this so you can see for yourself how incredibly bad the examples your giving are...

i think im through with this site, very few here seem to have any clue what the hell their talking about but are just shoving shit in corners.



Well, it always helps to become abusive if people are not listening or taking you seriously, doesn't it?

Perhaps it's the delivery....

FYI I didn't give examples just provided a useful link where people can go research for themselves. You could do it as well if you like. May learn a thing or two. But maybe you already know all there is to know.... I suppose that is *possible*.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:46 am 
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Here is more useful info for those that are seriously curious:

http://dreamhawk.com/dream-encyclopedia/the-astral-body-astral-travel-and-the-dream-body/


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:50 pm
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Wow-
I found this conversation to be very helpful and very humors.
Thanks so much Forest Child! I believe you have a lot helpful insight that really gave me more understanding of such matters. After reading your comments, you kind of remind me of a very wise old person, I say this in a respectable way of course!
I do find this debate over astral projection vs. lucid dreaming very interesting.
Wouldn’t you say that when you astral project you leave your body? Also don’t you enter the possibility of traveling into a different plane of dimension? I know this explanation has been stated and or hinted at but I’ve never done such, but I do like to read….


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:23 am
Posts: 120
Location: UK
To return to your original questions, Mike, I find your concerns about your journeying experiences both legitimate and perceptive, based on my experience of training myself and many others in "shamanic journeying" skills.

REAL JOURNEYS versus Flights of Imagination
-------------------------------------------
I feel that problems of "legitimacy" [i.e. "Am I driving a self-creative daydream or am I having a genuine spiritual experience"] easily arise from the way that journeying is commonly taught i.e. by mentally creating an image [e.g. the roots of a tree and a rabbit hole to the lower world]. It may be that this approach works fine for some experienced practitioners [personally I abandoned it years ago!] but for beginners especially, it leads into a potential minefield of ego-generated wishful thinking and "flights of imagination". The mark of failure, that you have perceptively identified, Mike, is that the would-be-practitioner ends up with "entertaining storyboard imagery" which brings no clear new insights or guidance into everyday living.

A genuine journeying experience is always illuminating!

In a recent forum discussion on "blocks to journeying", Edward Hester put it very succinctly "The first priority for us all is to get our spirituality healthy and get out of fantasy, illusion, and painful programming and behavior."

Forest Child has made much the same point in this thread: "In a TRUE journey, your ego has to be set aside, YOU and your wants, needs or expectations has to subside. This emptiness and abandon of all expectation is the entrance to the cave."

Unfortunately, many folks rush into "manufactured journeys" without doing the necessary preparatory work of de-stressing plus disengaging thinking, ego and "driven-ness". The key words are SURRENDER and "OPEN-UP" [awareness]! Uncleared stress and held-in/repressed/disconnected emotions are a death-blow to valid, productive and practical journeying practice. Not only will they block or distort the journeying experience itself, but just as important, they will BLOCK or DISTORT our INTERPRETATION of the journeying experience.

If anyone would like some tips on journeying, I can email you my 4-page guide. Just message me via my website enquiry form:
http://www.sunflower-health.com/forms/enquiry.htm

POWER ANIMALS MORPHING INTO THREATENING OR DISTURBING CREATURES?
We must not forget that power animals can have negative as well as positive attributes - like a 2-sided coin. In the case of the eagle, for example, the negative qualities can be "aloofness", "high-handedness" or "predatory!". These "shadow power animals" are usually embodying a negative power held in our personal shadow. By definition we are not directly aware of the archetypal patterns repressed or denied into our shadow - usually we will project them onto people around us. For more about "SHADOW POWER ANIMALS" and "CONTRARY TOTEMS" see:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/UKshamanismToday/permalink/471832832839125/

Mike asked: "if 'power animals' and so on have their own kind of reality, then why would mine do that?"

Personally I draw a distinction between power animals and spirit guides, power animals being energised [i.e. activated by current life situations] "archetypal forms" [aka sub-personalities] that lie in our sub-conscious and are available for integration into consciousness. Once integrated into consciousness, they are available for conscious expression in our person-ality, with or without [alchemical healing] transformation from self-sabotaging to life-enhancing.
They are "real" in the sense of combining energy and information [form and vibrational pattern] but NOT REAL in the sense of being capable of existing independent from our psyche.

DRUMMING CDs
------------
Drumming is not essential for shamanic journeying, no does it guarantee a "legitimate" spiritual or psychotherapeutic experience, as opposed to a "flight of fantasy". However it is a powerful facilitator for many people. Recorded drumming is very useful for people who have acquired journeying skills but not always helpful for beginners. A "live" experienced sacred drummer is best for beginners because a trained journey drummer can attune to [and channel] spirit IN THE PRESENT MOMENT, PLACE and AUDIENCE, whereas a recorded drummer [if skilled] will be attuned to spirit in a different place and time.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Hi there ,

I am new to this forum and new to the understanding of shamanism in this light. I am a 37 year old male who has lived in fear of his gift for about 36 of those years.

Recently I went through a transformation in my life where I woke up to the reality of my life . Without going into any great detail of it my past was painful but not of the sort people would normally think of . I was adopted when I was two years old I am of Celtic and Greek lineage but that is all I ever knew of my Bio parents .

As a child I was always wide open . I could see hear and feel things others could not . I talked to animals , plants and rocks . As I grew up I tried to explain all of this to myself in many ways since I was being raised in a Christian home it was difficult at best . when I reached adulthood I was broken and shattered into a million pieces but I was still having vivid lucid dreams and projecting to the astral plane . I could not understand anything about my feelings and Such since shamanism or sorcery of any sort ran 100% against everything I was taught in church . I was committed to a psyche ward via voluntary admission . I was given a diagnosis of severe depression . I was put on anti depressants and anti psychotics . I existed this way for about a year but I felt cut off .
I went to another doctor MD who said there is nothing wrong with you at all so I stopped my drug regiment . Given a clean bill of health mentally and physically . Jump a few years ahead and I am married with a child and content . However there is still that underlying need to know what all this is about .

I discovered, while researching about different practices, shamanism . I feel it is right in every fiber of my body and soul . Last night I felt I needed to try a journey on my own. After doing some research into the matter I felt I had found the right way for me to proceed so I did . My intention was to find my spirit animal .

This is how my journey proceeded It was a 15 minute guided drum session on mp3 . I sat in a chair because right as of now I cant lie on the floor or any surface except my bed due to a back ailment and I felt that if I was on my bed I may fall asleep. So I contemplated for awhile and it seemed to me that sitting would be fine since lying on the floor would be to distracting .

I stated my intention as per the instructions ( its sounds full of cheese I know however it was all done in great reverence) . It took about a minute maybe less and I was already in a forest and met my spirit animal in the lower realm . Some people may be speculating that it wasn't a journey at all but this is how I felt . I saw her in full glory and immediately ,Physically and spiritually, I began to sob with joy and all I could was grovel on the ground in front of her and thank her profusely for coming she told me to get up and get on her back and she showed me a lot of things about the world and me . last night I slept better then I have ever before and feel rested unlike I have in forever I think .

Now fast forward to today and my internal dialogue is full with thoughts about what happened and what she is telling me all the time .

So my question is this; as it pertains to the original post . The journey was a journey no matter how anyone says ,it should be, it just was . am I correct to assume this ?

Secondly I view the internal dialogue as my conscious self conversing more with my subconscious self and I am not actually talking directly to my spirit animal in this dialogue but that on some level it is guided still by her . Would this be a correct interruption of imagination vs the journey?

Thank you in advance.

D.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:24 am 
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Hi D!

Thank-you for sharing your journey [the life one as well as the psychic one]. Beyond our conscious mind are vast resources there to help and support us. They come into play especially when we are steruggling with life. I have copied below a wise if rather mystical writing which warns us about trying too hard to understand things - to live more simply as a child with wonder and acceptance.

First, though I would like to mention an important point from my own experience in case it is helpful to you. It is that when we are having a huge amount of psychic experiences they can be partly driven [energised] by not dealing with life at the emotional and practical lifeskills level i.e. the energies of lower chakras are not being met and expressed at those levels, so the ascend in excessive amounts ot the brow and crown chakras. Too get overly caught up in analysing the psychic experiences can distract us from the grounded personal development and emotional intelligence work that we might need to do.

WISDOM

In the quiet of the night Wisdom came and stood beside my bed, gazing at me like a doting mother. She wiped away my tears and said, 'I heard the cry of your soul and came to solace you. Open your heart to me, that I might fill it with light. Ask me, and I shall show you the path of truth.'

I said, 'Who am I, O Wisdom, and how did I arrive in this ghastly place? What are these powerful longings, numerous books, and eldritch markings? What are these thoughts that pass like a flock of doves? What is this speech, ordered in affection and scattered in delight? What are these consequences that sadden and enrapture, that embrace my spirit and besiege my heart? What are these eyes fixed upon me, that gaze upon my innermost self and ignore my pain? What are these voices mourning over my days, singing of my childhood? What is this youth, who plays with my desires, mock my sentiments, forgets the deeds of yesterday, rejoices in the trivialities of the moment, and loathes the tardiness of tomorrow? What is this world that is hastening me toward I know not what, viewing me with contempt? What is this earth, its mouth gaping to swallow bodies, whose bosom offers relief to the abode of ambition? What is this person who acquiesces in loving happiness, but accepts hell if he cannot attain it; who seeks the kiss of life and receives the blows of death; who buys a moment of pleasure with a year of regrets; who surrenders to the slumber and dreams that call to him; who walks along the canals of ignorance to the gulf of darkness? What are all these things, O Wisdom?'

She said, 'You desire, O mortal, to view this world through the eyes of a God, and wish to comprehend the mysteries of the world to come by means of your human intellect; and this is the utmost folly. Go out into the open country, and you will find the bee hovering over flowers and the eagle picking apart its prey. Enter the house of your neighbor, and you will see a child bedazzled by the fire's rays, while the mother busies herself with housework. Imitate the bee and do not spend the days of spring gazing upon the deeds of the eagle. Be as the child and delight in the flame's brightness, and pay no heed to your mother and her affairs. 'All that you see was and is for your sake.

The numerous books, uncanny markings, and beautiful thoughts are the ghosts of souls who preceded you. The speech they weave is a link between you and your human siblings.

The consequences that cause sorrow and rapture are the seeds that the past has sown in the field of the soul, and by which the future shall profit... This youth who plays with your desires is the very same person who opened the door of your heart so as to flood it with light. This earth with its gaping maw is the one who delivers you from bondage to your body. This world that hastens you is your heart, and your heart is all that you conceive of as a world. The person you consider ignorant and insignificant is the one who came from God, that he might learn bliss from grief and knowledge from gloom.'

Wisdom placed her hand on my feverish forehead and said, 'Advance and never halt, for advancing is perfection. Advance and do not fear the thorns in the path, for they draw only corrupt blood.'

- --oOo-- -

From Khalil Gibran: "The Vision: Reflections on the Way of the Soul" Chapter 10: "On Wisdom"
http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780140195545/?a_aid=specialoffer


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Thank you Brother Micheal . This is great wisdom for me . I am truly thankful to you .

D.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:52 pm 
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You are most welcome, D! In shamanic journeying we touch the magic of the Upper and Lower worlds, but if we forget the importance of the Middle World we are in danger of entering into what has been called the "Chapel Perilous" experience, http://www.facebook.com/groups/UKshamanismToday/permalink/460089197346822/
where we risk losing our grounding in the "enchantment" of our visions.

I always remember a friend telling me of his visit to an Ashram chanting session in India, in which one trainee excitedly reported that he had just had a vision of Jesus. The guru calmly responded "Say hello to Jesus for us - then come back to the chanting!"

The community service of shamanic practitioners is to mediate between the 2 worlds of human experience - the psychic and the "everyday" - this requires us to have a solid base in both worlds.

Here is another quote from the same sage as my last posting [a different book of his] that I personally have found very helpful...

YOUR DAILY LIFE IS YOUR TEMPLE, AND YOUR LIFESTYLE IS YOUR RELIGION!...

And an old priest said, "Speak to us of Religion." And he said...

"Is not religion all deeds and all reflection?...AND that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul, even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?

Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?"

All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.

The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.

And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.

The freest song comes not through bars and wires.

And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of his soul whose windows are open from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.

Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.

Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,

The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.

For in revery [dreaming/envisioning] you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.

And take with you all men:

For in adoration [spiritual practice] you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God, be not therefore a solver of riddles.

Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.

And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning and descending in rain.

You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees!"

-----oOo-----

[from Kahlil Gibran:
[from "The Prophet", see www.lovehealth.org/resources/gibran.htm]


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:34 pm 
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May I suggest that you take some time to be still. I hear your mind like a buzzing bee looking for a hive...looking for the 'queen bee' (the answer to it all). Quiet your mind...trust that silent space from within...learn from this silence which will quiet your heart and slow your breath.
Then, listen (by head phones) to a drumming CD and just be still with that for now - that way you are not in control of the drumming or even thinking about what speed in which to drum.....

Take time alone to be with Mother Earth - feel her skin beneath your bare feet. Feel what it's like to feel your feet moving in harmony with great Mothers skin....Feel her....really take time to feel her.

Take a step by non-stepping.....

Be in Peace.... ~Journi


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 2:44 pm 
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Location: Finland
Hi, Mike! You've gotten some good answers allready, but I thought I'd share some of my own thoughts.
In neo-shamanism the emphasis is on the journeying, even though that is such a small part of shamanic practise. Shamanism is not something you take out when needed, it is a way of life, a sertain wiev of the world(s), it is something you ARE not something you DO. To start with journeying is to start at the wrong end, in my opinion.
Some tips that may be usefull:
Go out into nature and stay there, as much and as often as you can.
Try to become aware of your surroundings, use one sence at a time at first, then combine them.
No human can teach what nature teaches, there are no words for these valuable lessons.
Find a way of getting to know energies, how to feel/hear/smell/taste, or whatever, them. How does the "net of power" (this I translated directly from finnish, don't know how to say it) works. With "the net of power" I meen kind of the net of life, that wich connects us all and which you can learn to weave as to control your own destiny.
To practise some sort of "meditation" (in lack of a better word), to learn to quiet the mind I think is ve ry useful. Then learnto focus your mind and keep the focus there. You need this skill when journeying. No journey will be successfull unless you clearly know Why you are going and keep your focus on that.
Learn to control your emotions. When you are making a journey the intent need to be strong! You have to reallyreallyreally want to get the anwers, as strongly as a mother wants her baby out of a burning building!
There are also many ways of journeying. For me, lying down is not an option (untill I get to the state where I might loose control of the body) and I allways sing (make sounds). Or rather spirit sings through me, I have no saying in this. Try dancing, walking, drumming, rattling, singing, swaying, sitting, lying, clapping, staring... And 10 or 20 minutes wont do it, I'd say keep going for at least 30 min
Don't expect the journey-experience to be what you thought it would, it most probably wont be. It might be pitch dark, maybe you just hear or feel or know things. It might be something totaly new, something you never could have imagined and don't have any words for.
You will know when the journeying gets to a point where you step out of your own mind and into other worlds.
And most important of all: give yourself time. We are so used to getting everything fast and easy we forgt that even the indigenous shamans often went through years and years of training.

Then I just want to say that for a journey to be successfull you dont't have to go into the deepest trance-states. Different things happen on different levels.

Good luck to you!


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Mielikki and brothermichael both clarified the issue i think.

I was wondering if I could comment on what brothermichael had said about shadow power animals. I have noticed a large amount of variation in my own journeying, not so much in the visual but more so in the feelings that go along with 'negative' visions. My perception may be different, especially because my main contact in the upper world is a disturbing looking character (death) who always approaches me with the opposite feelings in which I might call brotherly love. In this respect I think the point is that what is bad must also be accepted. Maybe I am too young to understand the entirety of it, but lately I think the more disturbing visions I have had are pointing towards an acceptance of life in the middle world just as you have said, but that I view disturbing encounters as a positive thing because of their importance in my own growth (here I mean in the lower world of course). My opinion is that those who force their journeys to always focus on the bright side of life are never able to comprehend both sides, I'd rather not mention the ying and the yang but that's an easy example for a new comer reading things.


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