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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:01 pm 
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ShimmerSnake wrote:
soulflower wrote:
Try this:

http://shamanportal.org/forum/post3894.html?hilit=drumming%20mp3#p3894

I've used it recently, both in a meditative state and before sleep with very good results.

drumming cd? its like your intentionally trying to steer people in the wrong direction..is doing this how you get off or something?



If you have a look at the link provided, you'll see that I didn't post the topic or create the CD, but simply shared the link to the topic. Shimmersnake, you ought to lighten up.

There is nothing wrong with using CDs or recordings, Mp3s etc if they get you where you need to be.

Many years ago I, personally, found a great recording (at a Public Library) of indigenous Shamans doing healing ceremonies that I have been using ever since for meditative and traveling, transformative purposes. The intent of the shamans and the energy of the ceremony comes through very well in the CDs and is able to transport me, almost instantaneously. It's possible if you allow it to be.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:10 pm 
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Nashoba wrote:
I believe it is like anything ... practice makes perfect.

Just like when learning to make music with any instrument - at first you have to concentrate on the movements and the forms to make the correct notes, it doesn't come easy, and the music is stilted and jarring because you are still stumbling through it.

Then you start getting it down and can then focus on the timing, the roundness, the depth, enhancements. Then with enough practice, your body can then do the movements without having to THINK about them, it becomes automatic, fluid, like a second nature - and THAT is when your music will flow and gain true soul and spirit.

Well I think drumming to journey is the same exact way. At first yes, the drumming itself will likely be a distraction that works against you - but eventually, with time and practice ... it will become like breathing and it will then no longer be the obstacle, but a integral part of the path itself.


Exactly! Certainly learning to journey is not an overnight thing. Don't be discouraged if it doesn't happen right away! But keep trying!


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:15 pm 
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Great replies :D

Alright I'll keep at it; I've used mp3s like the excellent one soulflower linked me up til this point, but of course I've only dabbled in it. I think that's a good point that shimmersnake makes about the drumming itself being something to learn from/have fun with, and not have it be entirely about journeying. Why is that so emphasized in contemporary books on shamanism though? I mean practical shamanism, like cowan's manual and so on.

I also ordered a drum - a middle-of-the-road bodhrán instead of a djémbe, but I'm stoked.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:44 am 
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douglas_funny wrote:
I think that's a good point that shimmersnake makes about the drumming itself being something to learn from/have fun with, and not have it be entirely about journeying. Why is that so emphasized in contemporary books on shamanism though? I mean practical shamanism, like cowan's manual and so on.

I also ordered a drum - a middle-of-the-road bodhrán instead of a djémbe, but I'm stoked.

journey is only one small part, but it appeals to peoples fantasies and they think its a whole bunch of things it really isnt which is the reason why you hear so much talk. dont buy into all this doug, anything you can do in journey you can do within trance in normal waking reality as both physical reality and the other side are connected together by your perception. dont drum to pretend a fantasy reality into existence, drum to find the real reality you exist within the here and now.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:46 am 
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douglas_funny wrote:
Great replies :D


I also ordered a drum - a middle-of-the-road bodhrán instead of a djémbe, but I'm stoked.



I have two djembes, a little one and a big one. I use my little one more, just because I am more familiar with it. The sound is amazing, literally shakes a person to the core! One thing you may want to do, which I usually do when receiving a new item of power, is to sleep with it. For a night or two, just to give it that little piece of you, before you get started. I painted mine as well, a picture that spoke to me though spirit just to give it that little something extra. Good luck with your drumming!


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:23 am 
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douglas_funny wrote:
Hi all,

I've experimented with shamanic journeying on and off because I don't find my current spiritual path satisfying, and I have to say the results are hard for me to interpret.

On one hand, if a 'real' journey is mostly kind of conscious intent fed into visualized landscape and my power animal and so on, then I guess I can journey at will wherever I am and whenever I want, with or without drumming or any kind of preparatory stuff. What's odd though, is that my journeys seem sort of stale for one thing..I tend to go to the same two or three places, and the path there looks almost identical every time. Plus, I don't gain any unexpected wisdom or anything once there from the other assorted characters I meet. In short, I haven't found anything so far to convince me there's anything "other-dimensional" or mystical about it. It just seems like mental garbage.


There is so much to convey about this subject that a post on a forum is hardly likely to do it justice but the ability to go from Beta awareness (the waking consciousness) through Alpha to Theta and Delta is inbuilt into ALL humans. It forms part of our survival mechanism and has been used by virtually all 1st nation and tribal people in antiquity to the present to find answers to questions that our ordinary senses cannot. We can, given the right stimulus (dancing to exhaustion, drumming - rhythmic noise, entheogens etc) all find different levels of altered states of awareness, however a few people can voluntarily go deeeeep down into Theta trance where a VERY different level of access to information is.

When most of us meditate, do guided meditations or journey initially, it is in the light, Alpha awareness where we come up against our own inner concerns, guides and animal spirits who are allied to us, issues and problems made manifest in the journey etc. This is usually all about us and our inner makeup but we can use it to change things about us. Eventually when we reach a sort of 'tipping point' where there is less personal crap left to deal with and more open, grounded and balanced energy within us, we can become instrumental in opening up this healing for others and so the trance 'can' go deeper.

If what you are experiencing seems to be only inner machinations of your own psyche then go with that for now, work out and face your problems, work through them, and see where it takes you.

douglas_funny wrote:
I'm curious but I also have high standards. :) What's more, if I invest mental energy into believing that every random visual and auditory imagining that comes into my head in the course of the day is REAL in its own sense and that it's my power animal talking to me or something, well I can easily see myself going bonkers with that! I mean that's freaking exhausting, trying to tell the difference between what's worth paying attention to and what's just normal thoughts cycling in and out, especially if the difference is some vague thing. I've been hoping for an adequate answer to these questions in a couple of more well-known books on practical shamanism I've read, but the question is only sort of addressed, and that in the context of a formal journeying, not walking around during the day.


I remember thistles in a journey once - were they worth paying attention to? Yes, pulling out these thistles in the journey equated to rooting out some rather prickly aspects of my personality and I could feel the difference after.

It is a very wise question, however, to discern the difference between a journey (where you find yourself observing/feeling things you were not expecting) and light daydreaming where you 'want' a certain outcome or to see something specific so your ego is still in control!

In a TRUE journey, your ego has to be set aside, YOU and your wants, needs or expectations has to subside. This emptiness and abandon of all expectation is the entrance to the cave. It is what meditation helps us to find. If you find that you are still in control in a journey then it is not quite there yet. You have to let go of the control and allow yourself to completely give up everything. The ego is the enemy of the inner journey. This is why dance is so good to get us out of our ego-mind space.

douglas_funny wrote:
Another odd thing is that my power animal and some other recurring characters tend to suddenly morph into threatening or disturbing creatures and back again..which oddly enough is unsettling for me but not exactly disturbing or even unexpected as it should be. What doesn't match up is that if "power animals" and so on have their own kind of reality, then why would mine do that?


Would you have dreamed this up? Did you want these animals to show you this? If the answer is no and this came as a surprise then this is something to take seriously. Perhaps it could be that you need to face BOTH sides of the nature that these animals represent and see how that reflects upon your nature. Accepting that we all have dark and light sides is a pivotal part of a shamanic path.

douglas_funny wrote:
My current interpretation then is that everything seen in the imagination has the power to inform me about my conscious and sub-conscious wants and needs, but only psychologically speaking..like I said I haven't seen anything so far that's mystical or that leads me to think I'm actually encountering other intelligences, and not any that especially have my best interests at heart either. Just my own ego, and that's all.

I'd appreciate some honest and in-depth answers if you folks have any.

~Mike


YES - initially, this is exactly what it is about and a BIG invitation to change and grow. What you seem to be 'expecting', however are fireworks and whistles which isn't necessarily what you need. Don't take what others write about their journey experiences to be the only way. What we are shown is exactly what WE need at that time. The shamanic path is different for everyone, not all are called by Spirit to become shamans, artists, gardeners, or plumbers - but what you seem to be being called to is to investigate YOU. Learning to see who you are, who works with you, what makes you the person you are is a massive first step which many people overlook as not being important enough. They want to be shown a sort of astral fairground and perhaps for some, that's all they ever get. Our altered states of awareness are there for very good reason, not for entertainment. If you are being shown these significant things about yourself - use it and, more importantly, grow from what you are shown.

-----------

With regard to astral travel and lucid dreaming, they are definitely not the same and to suggest so implies a lack of experience in those areas.

Using a CD for drumming is not a problem, in many parts of the world where drumming is used to drive the journey, a shamanic assistant will drum while the shaman goes deeeeeep into theta trance. While in theta trance, most bodily functions are compromised, breathing becomes incredibly shallow and even bladder function can be lost (yes the shaman can pee herself/himself!!!! - I bet that's not something they teach in weekend workshops!) While in such a deep state of trance, it is impossible to continue drumming or singing so the assistant or other shamans will take over the rhythm. Sometimes, several shamans will work together and those who go into deep trance are supported by those who don't, it simply depends on who's Spirits choose who to do the work, not who thinks they know all the answers. Using a CD gives the same frequency of sound and rhythm. Although there is a difference between drumming for oneself and listening to a CD, there are very valid uses for both. To insinuate that only one way is the correct way suggests a lack of experience.

I hope you keep going with your journeying, stick with it, learn to trust the stuff which you couldn't have made up - even ask your Spirits to show you something which you could not have made up so that they teach you the difference between lively imagination and true journeys. If you stick with it, you will be able to discern the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:32 am 
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Forest Child wrote:
With regard to astral travel and lucid dreaming, they are definitely not the same and to suggest so implies a lack of experience in those areas.

give a example of the differences between the two.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:09 pm 
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ShimmerSnake wrote:
Forest Child wrote:
With regard to astral travel and lucid dreaming, they are definitely not the same and to suggest so implies a lack of experience in those areas.

give a example of the differences between the two.


:lol: Perhaps giving an example of common courtesy and manners may be more helpful. Given that this is your theory, perhaps you would like to provide examples of their identical nature?


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:11 pm 
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Forest Child wrote:
ShimmerSnake wrote:
Forest Child wrote:
With regard to astral travel and lucid dreaming, they are definitely not the same and to suggest so implies a lack of experience in those areas.

give a example of the differences between the two.


:lol: Perhaps giving an example of common courtesy and manners may be more helpful. Given that this is your theory, perhaps you would like to provide examples of their identical nature?


i simply asked you to give a example of the difference between lucid dreaming and astral projection, since you said and i quote "suggesting that they are similar is a lack of experience in those areas", if you cannot back up your statement then why say it? and how am i not being curtious?


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:37 pm 
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It is perhaps more appropriate to ask politely rather than demanding, you didn't 'simply ask' or even use a question mark, you told me to give examples - there is a subtle but very clear difference.

ShimmerSnake wrote:
give a example of the differences between the two.


If you cannot back up your own statement then it is a moot point wouldn't you say? There is a difference between choosing not to acquiesce to a demand and not having information to offer.

This is getting very far away from the original question.

From my experience, however, a lucid dream is one where we are aware within the dream that we are dreaming - it is not about control of the dream but we can make some decisions within the framework of that dreamspace. We can even re-enter the dream later should we need to.

Astral travel, on the other hand, like OBEs is often a deliberate and conscious way of entering areas of the Astral outside our own dreamspace.

The feeling is different I would say. Dreams help us to understand ourselves and situations we are coming up to. They give us mirrors and tools with which to learn and grow. To take control in a dream and to direct it entirely, quite apart from being unusual to have that level of control, doesn't allow the dream to unfold in a way that teaches us so learning to control within lucid dreams doesn't help us. Learning to deliberately leave our body, bilocate, OBE and astral travel to other places/dimensions is quite a different thing with different feeling and reasons for doing so. Does that answer your question?

If you feel that I am wrong, please do offer your examples to the contrary.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Forest Child wrote:
It is perhaps more appropriate to ask politely rather than demanding, you didn't 'simply ask' or even use a question mark, you told me to give examples - there is a subtle but very clear difference.

ShimmerSnake wrote:
give a example of the differences between the two.


If you cannot back up your own statement then it is a moot point wouldn't you say? There is a difference between choosing not to acquiesce to a demand and not having information to offer.

This is getting very far away from the original question.

From my experience, however, a lucid dream is one where we are aware within the dream that we are dreaming - it is not about control of the dream but we can make some decisions within the framework of that dreamspace. We can even re-enter the dream later should we need to.

Astral travel, on the other hand, like OBEs is often a deliberate and conscious way of entering areas of the Astral outside our own dreamspace.

The feeling is different I would say. Dreams help us to understand ourselves and situations we are coming up to. They give us mirrors and tools with which to learn and grow. To take control in a dream and to direct it entirely, quite apart from being unusual to have that level of control, doesn't allow the dream to unfold in a way that teaches us so learning to control within lucid dreams doesn't help us. Learning to deliberately leave our body, bilocate, OBE and astral travel to other places/dimensions is quite a different thing with different feeling and reasons for doing so. Does that answer your question?

If you feel that I am wrong, please do offer your examples to the contrary.


not only have you given a incredibly innacure description of lucid dreaming, but you saying that astral projection is astral projection because its astral projection just proves my point, in other words dont talk crap about things you obviously dont know what your talking about because someone that does will call you out on it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:48 am 
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ShimmerSnake wrote:
not only have you given a incredibly innacure description of lucid dreaming, but you saying that astral projection is astral projection because its astral projection just proves my point, in other words dont talk crap about things you obviously dont know what your talking about because someone that does will call you out on it.


So how are you calling me out on it? So far, all that you have done since joining, is shout about things you yourself can't explain and tell others that they don't know anything yet you don't offer any viable examples, proof, references or otherwise.

There is so much anger in what you express, lots of work to do.

Robert Moss is a well known and deeply experienced dream expert. This article expresses well what I was referring to:

http://www.mossdreams.com/Design%202009/Archives/Essays/2010.10_what%20is%20active%20dreaming.htm

In particular:

Quote:
The easiest way to become a conscious or lucid dreamer is to start out lucid and stay that way. As a method of conscious dream navigation, Active Dreaming is not to be confused with approaches that purport to “control” or manipulate dreams; it is utterly misguided to seek to put the control freak in the ego in charge of something immeasurably wiser and deeper than itself.


I don't know what you have been told or read because you haven't given any information but there are sound teachers out there offering good advice. If you ever decide to learn about all aspects of the subject, Robert Moss may be a good one to start with.

It is difficult to debate the 'astral' aspect with you because you give no information otherwise. Can you give ANY explanation for your belief that these two things, which have different names and are referred to differently in many texts, are, in fact, the same? I would be truly interested to consider another point of view.

Again by Robert Moss, from his book Active Dreaming:

Quote:
we don't have to go to sleep and then become conscious during dreaming - instead we can enter lucidity right from the start, at a state that is between waking consciousness and sleep. It's interesting because this is one of the ways to also induce astral projection - another very similar technique that I am discussing elsewhere on my pages.


If you have information that puts these two techniques under precisely the same umbrella, please do share it rather than getting angry.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Forest Child wrote:
ShimmerSnake wrote:
not only have you given a incredibly innacure description of lucid dreaming, but you saying that astral projection is astral projection because its astral projection just proves my point, in other words dont talk crap about things you obviously dont know what your talking about because someone that does will call you out on it.


So how are you calling me out on it? So far, all that you have done since joining, is shout about things you yourself can't explain and tell others that they don't know anything yet you don't offer any viable examples, proof, references or otherwise.

There is so much anger in what you express, lots of work to do.

Robert Moss is a well known and deeply experienced dream expert. This article expresses well what I was referring to:

http://www.mossdreams.com/Design%202009/Archives/Essays/2010.10_what%20is%20active%20dreaming.htm

In particular:

Quote:
The easiest way to become a conscious or lucid dreamer is to start out lucid and stay that way. As a method of conscious dream navigation, Active Dreaming is not to be confused with approaches that purport to “control” or manipulate dreams; it is utterly misguided to seek to put the control freak in the ego in charge of something immeasurably wiser and deeper than itself.


I don't know what you have been told or read because you haven't given any information but there are sound teachers out there offering good advice. If you ever decide to learn about all aspects of the subject, Robert Moss may be a good one to start with.

It is difficult to debate the 'astral' aspect with you because you give no information otherwise. Can you give ANY explanation for your belief that these two things, which have different names and are referred to differently in many texts, are, in fact, the same? I would be truly interested to consider another point of view.

Again by Robert Moss, from his book Active Dreaming:

Quote:
we don't have to go to sleep and then become conscious during dreaming - instead we can enter lucidity right from the start, at a state that is between waking consciousness and sleep. It's interesting because this is one of the ways to also induce astral projection - another very similar technique that I am discussing elsewhere on my pages.


If you have information that puts these two techniques under precisely the same umbrella, please do share it rather than getting angry.



yeah see thats the problem, i was asking you for your opinion and instead you gave me the opinion of someone else. if your only experience in this is the words of someone else then that doesnt mean you know what it is, it means your taking another persons explanation on faith. and faith is one thing i have absolutely no time for as it pertains to mysticism.

their is no difference between astral projection and lucid dreaming because the same methodology thats used to lucid dream is the exact same method thats used to astral project, some people refer to specific planes as "astral", for some that plane is when your in a sort of outer-space plane and you see as if your a sphere, for others the astral plane is when you walk around normal physical reality as a ghost. either way neither of these planes are seperate from lucid dreaming, they are just different parts of the same place.

thats my explanation from my own experience, this isnt me saying everyone else is wrong because they dont believe the same thing as a book you read. you have a opinion on something that you dont even have enough experience within to give your own description, as i said earlier dont make statement of things you dont know a damn thing about because people will call you out on them.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:17 pm 
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But you didn't ask for my opinion, you said:
ShimmerSnake wrote:
give a example of the differences between the two.


I did that. Then you say that I have not given you my own experiences, which I did:

Forest Child wrote:
From my experience, however, a lucid dream is one where we are aware within the dream that we are dreaming - it is not about control of the dream but we can make some decisions within the framework of that dreamspace. We can even re-enter the dream later should we need to.

Astral travel, on the other hand, like OBEs is often a deliberate and conscious way of entering areas of the Astral outside our own dreamspace.

The feeling is different I would say. Dreams help us to understand ourselves and situations we are coming up to. They give us mirrors and tools with which to learn and grow. To take control in a dream and to direct it entirely, quite apart from being unusual to have that level of control, doesn't allow the dream to unfold in a way that teaches us so learning to control within lucid dreams doesn't help us. Learning to deliberately leave our body, bilocate, OBE and astral travel to other places/dimensions is quite a different thing with different feeling and reasons for doing so. Does that answer your question?

If you feel that I am wrong, please do offer your examples to the contrary.


I also asked you to make your case and give your examples for them being the same but other than saying that they have the same methodology (which clearly they don't - one you generally enter into sleep (delta awareness) hence it is called lucid 'dreaming' and the other you enter as deep trance (theta awareness) so the methodology is not the same. Other than that, you cannot provide anything new, interesting or other than based on your own opinion, which of course, you are entitled to but it doesn't help me or anyone else to consider what you say with any credibility. Please, by all means, do offer some kind of in-depth analysis of the similarities and I will happily reconsider my own experiences in the light of them.

Please, either read what I write so that you can understand it or stop getting so irate. So far you have not offered a shred of anything useful or interesting and since there is little here for me to learn, this is where my interaction ends.


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 Post subject: Re: The Difference between Imagination and 'Journeying'
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Forest Child, thank you for your thoughtful replies! I enjoyed reading your post and I believe that I learned from it.


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