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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:23 pm 
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Aweel - This comment disturbs me greatly. "Drugs are necessary in the shamanic journey."

You mentioned natural drugs, produced by the brain - such as endorphins, etc? If you comment was meant to make the point that we all operate on such drugs, then I can understand what you're saying, and to a certain degree, I agree.

However, in response to this general thread, I've got to admit, I absolutely don't believe external substances are required for journeying, or obtaining an altered state, or remaining IN an altered state for long periods of time.

By this, I do include techniques such as ecstatic dance, drumming, rattling, etc. These are 'gateway' techniques (just as the use of substances like tobacco, alcohol, and illegal drugs are 'gateway' drugs), designed to boost us along the path and gain access to those altered states.

It's important to remember the ability lies within us, alone. We can use those external sources as a booster seat, to get us going, but it's VERY dangerous as a Shaman to become dependent on them. It becomes a limiting thing, and Shamanism is all about expanding yourself, growing and learning. You stop yourself from learning if you can't free yourself of the training wheels.

-Ursa


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 Post Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Location: Australia
Personally i wouldn't use a "teacher plant" (i don't remember who used the term but i liked it better than 'drugs' so i adopted it) until i believed that i could do all that i could on my own... Not to mention a lot of them are illegal for use in most countries these days, personally i believe that breaking any a law set down by society would be non productive.

Shamanism to me is about learning about you and your spirit and how you fit in with everything so you can help other people. An obstacle like a law saying you can't use something like LSA to travel is not a barrier to stop you from traveling, just from using that to travel. There are many other ways to travel and from my perspective that's what shamanism is about... learning!


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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:41 am 
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The question isn't how it happened, it's "Did it work?"

If we are talking about healing then we should use the right tool, to the right effect, to get the right result for the patient. If your toolbox helps the patient then all's well that ends well.

If we are talking about personal work, use whatever you need to reach your goal. Try different stuff, see what works.

Pretty simple, just get the result and grow.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:16 am 
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Plants and animals have tried to help us from the beginning,and they have,I think the problem we run into is in "Usery",did it seek you out to help or did you seek it out to use,then you still have a choice to accept the help offered or respecfully decline and await the next Helping Spirit,if you need help they'll come around,as shamanic practitioners we have a responsibility to be honest to the spirits that help and to the spirits who need help,if you have to use it its going to use you,and this isnt conducive to a longstanding working relationship,our impatience to awaken will often put us in the ground faster than would otherwhise have been,and sometimes a helper plant is only meant for the moment ,not for the momentum,each of us has to sort these things out ,no two situations are the same no two practitioners are the same,one persons awakening spirit will be another persons spirit end,we are ultimately responsible for what we do,there is no wrong advice when listening to the spirit,just make sure you have a handle on that ego or your helpers are gonna have their hands full keeping you in a position to recover.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Posts: 5
Location: Southern Lake Michigan area
Drug: a substance that alters body and brain chemistry.

By this definition, every thing you ingest is a drug.

Start with air. Breathe.

Once you have mastered that, move on to water. Drink.

Then try plants. Eat.

This is the basis of fasting, vision quests, herbal medicine, and all journeying.

You are on a hallucinogenic trip right now as we speak, induced by any air, water and food (or lack thereof) you might have ingested in the last 48 hours. The only difference between this and what is normally considered "hallucinogenic" is that there is a consensus of experience.

A truly "hallucinogenic" journey is one where the individual departs from consensual physical experience into the spirit world and brings back wisdom from that place. Such an experience can be induced (as said before) by many possible variations of gaseous/liquid/solid ingestibles, or a lack thereof over an extended period of time.

Traditions surrounding these experiences are crucial to the safety of the journeyer since most true "hallucinogenic" journeys can cause reality confusion, trigger latent mental illness, or even cause very real near death experiences (or even death itself). Most traditions that exist around these substances or fasting are well-established traditions done in specific ways for very specific reasons (even if no one tells you that).

While it's an obvious disclaimer that such things are not to be toyed around with, it should also be added that one should seek advice and counsel from elders and those experienced in such journeys before undertaking any such journey. No journey should EVER be undertaken alone without significant experience and exactly replicated conditions from a previous group experience (same substance batch or conditions of fasting and the same ritual activities). Some might even say no journey should ever be undertaken alone, period, not even by the most experienced and sane individual.

Use with caution, but these are the most powerful physical tools we have to inducing spiritual experience. And remember that fasting can be just as effective as ingesting substances, even more so for those who are struggling with addiction.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:17 pm 
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Hi all, I feel teacher pants are just some of the keys to Consciousness, but there are many keys or ways. There are lots of keys to suit all the different types of people and illnesses. Once the spirit of the plant is respected and the plant is taken to clear, grow and heal, then they are of such benifit. I too see many people taking the teacher plants for fun or ego, which is a shame, as they do not get to access their true power. But the plants have their own agenda and lessons to give. Even when some end up needing healing after, there is a rhyme beyond reason.
There are many rivers but they all lead to the sea.
May we all come home to swim in the ocean of the divine.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 4:59 pm 
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At the start of my work I used some potent substances, including amphetamine, thc, lsd, salvia, and mushrooms. as time went on I felt the need to switch to softer substances, for a variety of reasons. I do agree that the training wheels had to come off. I also don't recommend using amphetamine for this kind of work but I can't change my past. I now work using caffeine and herbal tea, but more often with nothing at all. In fact my most meaningful experiences have been with tea or with nothing.

My only strong opinion is on the work of western pro drug 'gurus' such as timothy leary. i adamantly disagree with his idea that simply doing a hallucinogen will cause any great change or evolution in the mind, regardless of how enjoyable the experience was. This is essentially the opposite of the well established traditions of use of plants as already mentioned here, and can lead to some pretty negative situations which I have witnessed many times.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:32 pm 
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willtrua wrote:
Hi all, I feel teacher pants are just some of the keys to Consciousness, but there are many keys or ways. There are lots of keys to suit all the different types of people and illnesses. Once the spirit of the plant is respected and the plant is taken to clear, grow and heal, then they are of such benifit. I too see many people taking the teacher plants for fun or ego, which is a shame, as they do not get to access their true power. But the plants have their own agenda and lessons to give. Even when some end up needing healing after, there is a rhyme beyond reason.
There are many rivers but they all lead to the sea.
May we all come home to swim in the ocean of the divine.

Very true Will. I see this alot with young people. They tend to treat psychedelics as if they are some kind of trippy fun drug. What's funny is that most people don't try them again after the second or third try. I have found that plants, especially ayahuasca, peyote, and mushrooms have a way of humbling us. They are great teachers and nothing is left hidden by them.


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 Post subject: Re:
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Location: Montreal
Shaman Hawk wrote:
You should remember they were called "teacher plants" in the beginning. They show you another perspective. Like any lesson, you are to outgrow your teacher and move on your own to be able to do the things you were taught.

"Drugs" are a substance that alters the physical and mental capacities, i.e. beer, tobacco, coffee and so on. I think its odd that people will look differently at people's mixtures. I know one old seer that does his readings in the morning with his coffee and smokes and another one that gets accurate readings with her red wine and cocaine. I had an aunt that would tell future things that we were going to read in the paper after she ate too much sugar.

What's your drug?


"I like coffee exceedingly" - Howard Phillips Lovecraft
This is a quote from someone who supported prohibition.

*For myself, tea (the grocery store kind)

Korean Shamanism -Muism is what I am currently looking into and studying. They use no drugs. They are powerful, knowledgeable shamans...


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:50 am 
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Entheogens have played a role in shamanic traditions around the world. That is just a simple fact. To deny that is the equivalent of denying gravity, useless. However, the importance sometimes placed on the use of Entheogens in shamanic practice is often over stated.

Can they be helpful? -- Yes.
Are the necessary? -- No.

In most cases, 'teacher plants' were restricted to the shaman. That isn't me saying the shaman was a pusher controlling the use of entheogens within their society, that means only shaman could use entheogens without angering the spirits and calling doom upon the people. Even in the rest of the cultures where the use of entheogens is open to the community at large, that exposure is seriously limited to once or twice in a lifetime.

Even full shaman will avoid the use of entheogens in most cases, preferring to retain more control, using such extreme and dangerous methods only as a last resort.

It is only to the Western Mind that such extreme cases become inflated to the norm, elevated and overstated to include weekly or chronic use, and mostly from a perceived need to seek what Eliade might refer to a mythic or sacred time, the trance state, "ego death", or ever deeper and more personal communion with 'the universe' or 'deities'. A state, I seem to remember, he claimed could more easily be achieved by enacting or reenacting myths.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:33 pm 
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shamanic cultures roughly two thirds of them use entheogenic ingredients to shamanize. Here, exactly where I live, the amanita muscaria apart from atropa and numerous types of datura, apart from cannabis, had been employed to induce hours-lasting trance-states.

It is not just a query of imagination but of altered states of perception, maintained more than a prolonged time - from half an hour to much more then twelve several hours as well as longer.

Today this know-how is gradually recovered for the reason that of illegality of the majority of those people entheogens. component of me says: Good, which they are prohibited, one other component of me is not that fortunate with this situation

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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:01 am 
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Until this past October, I had NEVER consumed any of the "teacher plants". Always being afraid of falling victim to their control, of loosing my own self-control, of becoming addicted, and loosing my own self.

However, in the early evening hours of the first weekend of October, I found myself in a situation where a small chocolate bar, made with psilocibin found me. With trusted friends I ate the chocolate, and awaited the lesson of the fungus. After much laughter and happiness, a thick fog of Sage Smoke drifted into our camp. This really was happening, not something that I saw in trance. I walked toward the source. As I saw a woman, who somehow looked familiar, I realized I was still laughing nearly uncontrollably. I felt myself ground everything in that instant. It was like dropping a million ton fur coat, I thought everyone could feel the vibration, but it didn't matter... Something big felt like it was about to happen, and I didn't want to be burdened by anything. My wife says she could see me ground, see my energy shift, but still it was different than my "normal self". I felt very humble, very settled, very grounded the rest of the evening. Being my first encounter with a Hallucinogenic, I worried that I had become my own "Buzz-Killer", but my wife assured me that my energy remained at it's own special level of Buzz the remainder of the evening... I'll not soon forget that experience, and will be ready to listen if this teacher comes to instruct me again...

~Keeper


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:11 pm 
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I still think there is no reason not to participate in ayahuasca ceremonies in Britain or elsewhere so long as it is doing the aspects of responsibility and respect.


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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:27 am 
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I think lots of people who are interested in shamanism use something. A friend of mine prefer amanitas. And the other mushrooms. I'm not that much into all of that, but I think that drugs( mostly natural ones) and shamanism are connected for sure. :)



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 Post subject: Re: Drugs and shamanism?
 Post Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:51 pm 
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I disagree with a lot that is said here.

Before using magical mushrooms, I was a brat. I disrespected life and didn't value health and consciousness.

After my experience, I saw the power of my mind. It put everything in perspective. I was attached spiritually to the infinite intelligance of the universe.

I quit smoking, I quit eating bad foods, I started exercising and taking care of my body, I started helping people.

This has changed my life.


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