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 Post subject: Help?
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:42 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:33 pm
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Location: Norman OK
I have never once felt in tune with any other spirit than my own. I find it hard to visualize almost anything in my mind, and I find it very hard indeed to listen to my own heart. For although it may have good intention it has led me to many woeful paths. So, in turn I find my attempts to follow the Shaman belief difficult. They are not difficult concepts to grasp, at least the small bit of information I have gained thus far is not so. Yet I have question upon question about various things in this belief. Still I find no other such belief that draws me in as does that of the Shaman.

So my question is this, would any one of you here, be willing to answer my questions? Would any of you be willing to teach me your ways? I want so very deeply to know all that I can, to see, hear, and listen to spirits other than my own. Please, I could really use some help.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:20 am 
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What are your questions?
Maybe you can post them here and people will give their answers or opinions.
At least I will.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:42 am 
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Well, okay then. A few days ago I sat down to meditate and ask for a guide, yet how do I know if the spirit I saw was the truth? How do I know it is not simply my mind creating what I sought after?

If all things in this world hold a spirit of their own than does this still hold true for our homes? Say the wood or stone in it's construction. Have we cast it out or is it still there? What about computers and phones and such? Do they carry a spirit?

The tree of life is said to be often seen with a square trunk to represent the four corners? What do these four corners represent? Also, if the upper world is future, and the lower world is the underworld, then the middle is our own? Or are my assumptions incorrect?

I have more but I'd rather not flood the board just yet. Also, please keep in mind I know very little as of yet, and I am aware my information could be way off.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:07 pm 
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The 4 corners would be the 4 directions of the compass (north south east west).
All groups will agree with that, though many groups will disagree on the color, animal or meaning of each direction.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:13 pm 
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>> yet how do I know if the spirit I saw was the truth?
>> How do I know it is not simply my mind creating what I sought after?

In the beginning, just accept it as the truth.
It’s as real to you as anything else. If it came from inside you, it is more valid than anything someone else could tell you.
If it is from outside you, it wants to teach you something.

You may change your opinion later, but for now, believe it and run with it.
You will still learn, either way.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:18 pm 
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>> If all things in this world hold a spirit of their own than does this still >> hold true for our homes? Say the wood or stone in it's construction. >> Have we cast it out or is it still there? What about computers and
>> phones and such? Do they carry a spirit?


If we can perceive it in this dimension, then it has some kind of spirit or Manitou.
Every independent body has it’s own Juice.
You grab some clay and roll it into a ball… It has it’s own spirit.
You break it up into 10 pieces.. There are 10 spirits.

Others may disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:36 am 
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[Quote: ...How do I know it is not simply my mind creating what I sought after?...]

Simple answer, it's an issue of faith. You either believe in it, or you rationalize it. Either choice can be effective and limiting in its own ways.

[Quote: ...If all things in this world hold a spirit of their own than does this still hold true for our homes? Say the wood or stone in it's construction. Have we cast it out or is it still there? What about computers and phones and such? Do they carry a spirit?...]

Hmmm... What do you feel to be the right answer? I'm not trying to sound enigmatic, there's just too many different perspectives on the question to give you one solid answer. If, what shaman do is the practical application of their view of reality, then shamanism isn't so much a belief system as it is the study of that world view or reality, as much as it is about the mechanics of what they do specifically. Meaning, there is more than one version or view with only superficial similarities.

The belief in spirit is intrinsic, innate, immutable. How that belief is represented or treated within the cultural model, is unique. This is something I would encourage you to explore on your own. Define it for yourself.

How? Develop your relationship with the spirits the same way you develop friendships with people. Spend time with them. Look for their influences and convergences in your life. Explore that relationship and the influences and see how that works. That will give you the evidence and information you need to define your own views of spirit, the spirit world, and how to negotiate with spirits from practical experience.

[Quote: ...The tree of life is said to be often seen with a square trunk to represent the four corners? What do these four corners represent?...]

... The question, as stated, relates to culture specific views. There is no one answer. Four is a sacred number, a pair of pairs, the square of sacred geometry. It usually represents the four cardinal directions, but can represent any key quartet held sacred. The question shouldn't be, "what does it mean to someone else?". The question should be, "What does it mean to me?"

[Quote: ...Also, if the upper world is future, and the lower world is the underworld, then the middle is our own? Or are my assumptions incorrect?...]

Symbols can be cultural. But, even cultural symbols have specific meaning to individual people not shared by the rest. If you are studying a specific tradition, say seidr, then the cultural symbolism is already present. If not, the symbolism is more individual to you.

Sadly, that is true for most of Shamanism. If you are studying a specific tradition, the models and forms already exist within that model. There is more than one model to choose from. If you are not currently studying an existing tradition, then there is no existing model from which to draw, and it becomes -- at some point -- necessary to develop some concept of it for yourself. The only 'right' way is 'your' way. Whether 'your' way falls under shamanism in a broad definition of the word or not, is another matter. A matter of semantics that I would suggest needs to be secondary to understanding 'your' way.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:33 pm
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Location: Norman OK
Thank you all so very much for your input, I really appreciate it. I still have a few more questions though. ^^;


First, what is a power song? Do you create it yourself or are their sheets for these?

Second, what might one offer to the spirits? Especially when you've little to offer? Do you need offerings for every time you ask for their advice?

Third, what is universally disrespectful to the spirits? Or do they all simply have their own ideas on what might be respectful and what is not?

Finally, is there such a thing as a morale line with the spirits? Are there bad and good, or somewhere in between?


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Kovah wrote:
Well, okay then. A few days ago I sat down to meditate and ask for a guide, yet how do I know if the spirit I saw was the truth? How do I know it is not simply my mind creating what I sought after?


Because with a little help, you can ask pertinent questions which will give answers which have meaning to you. A guide is there to help and 'guide' so there will be synchronicities and meaningful coincidences which will, over time, become the building blocks of trust in your relationship with the Spirits. If no meaningful information is given (either in the form of direct communication or perhaps symbols or metaphors) then you will have proved that this is not real.

Kovah wrote:
If all things in this world hold a spirit of their own than does this still hold true for our homes? Say the wood or stone in it's construction. Have we cast it out or is it still there? What about computers and phones and such? Do they carry a spirit?


You, yourself are made up of bone, hair, teeth, muscle, hormones, brain matter, skin and connective tissue amongst other things - each come together to make a whole which is greater than the sum of it's parts. Likewise a timber beam will have some memory of being a tree but the house itself has its own consciousness.

Kovah wrote:
The tree of life is said to be often seen with a square trunk to represent the four corners? What do these four corners represent? Also, if the upper world is future, and the lower world is the underworld, then the middle is our own? Or are my assumptions incorrect?


I've never heard of this before and never experienced a 4 cornered tree of life so it could be a conceptualism rather than an 'otherworld' reality for everyone. As others have said above, the 4 corners would correspond to the four directions of the compass.

Kovah wrote:
First, what is a power song? Do you create it yourself or are their sheets for these?


It is a song which comes from Spirit, they give it to you and it becomes your way calling them, working with them, like a lovers song it can be something unique just between the two of you. Song is a higher vibration than usual, it elevates us and brings us closer to them.

Kovah wrote:
Second, what might one offer to the spirits? Especially when you've little to offer? Do you need offerings for every time you ask for their advice?


Your heart, gratitude, love, affection, dedication, part of your meal, a feather you found, in fact anything which has meaning to you. After a while, you can ask them and see what they want.

Kovah wrote:
Third, what is universally disrespectful to the spirits? Or do they all simply have their own ideas on what might be respectful and what is not?


Disrespect! Boasting and such like. Again, time will show you what the Spirits who work with you find distasteful.

Kovah wrote:
Finally, is there such a thing as a morale line with the spirits? Are there bad and good, or somewhere in between?


That you may have to find out for yourself. It may depend on how you see your own morality. What is 'moral' for me may not be acceptable to you.

All these questions pretty much every one of us will have asked ourselves at some time. Don't worry about asking, they are sensible questions and worth answering.

It's also worth remembering that many of us are urged and drawn towards a shamanistic way of life, just as our ancestors lived in the distant past, but few are called by the Spirits to work as Shamans in just the same way that not everyone in the Catholic church is a priest!


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Forest Child gave some very good answers. I especially like...

Forest Child wrote:
It's also worth remembering that many of us are urged and drawn towards a shamanistic way of life, just as our ancestors lived in the distant past, but few are called by the Spirits to work as Shamans in just the same way that not everyone in the Catholic church is a priest!


I consider myself a Non-Shaman Animist. For me, Its not about the mysticism as much as it is about the relationships, friends, I have among the spirits.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Location: Boston, MA
I agree, Forest Child gave some great answers.

From my experience:
- I don’t have a power song and have never heard of one.
- For offering, sometimes tobacco or something for the critters where you’re doing an offering (nuts, fruit)
- For offering, letting ‘them’ know that you are sincere and want to learn and help
- Disrespect, I’m not sure, but for me if I have any kind of buzz on, things get scary. I think the Spirits accept us as we are, warts and all, going into it loaded in any way may be disrespectful.
- Morals, probably. But that is a hard thing to define. “Do unto others”, there’s no question that is important. But beyond that, things which involve us being human, I think they give us great leeway.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:29 am 
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herenow wrote:
I agree, Forest Child gave some great answers.

- Disrespect, I’m not sure, but for me if I have any kind of buzz on, things get scary. .


I had to respond because I totally agree about the buzz. I just came off of (a month ago) daily cannabis intake (under a mmj license). It just opened things up way to much in an uncontrolled, confusing way. It seemed the spirits were telling me to get off of it , at least one of the messages and when I finally stopped, they stopped.

I didn't lose my ability to communicate, though that is a whole other story.

SF


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:33 pm
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Location: Norman OK
So then it would actually be recommended to not have a buzz of any sort when communicating with the spirits?

One last question I have at the moment is thus. What if one has a very minimal, or complete lack of spiritual connection? Though, when around physical creatures, can somehow sense the aura around them? Also, if one had such a skill would it be possible to pick up on others emotional energy as well?

The reason I ask this is because I happen to be able to do such a thing. Yet for a very long time I ignored that part of myself. I couldn't control these feelings, and when in crowded areas it brought on a mass amount of stress due to several conflicting emotions. So over the years I have pushed it to the side, doing my best to dumb down the sensations until I have gotten to the point I am at today. I still can not control it, but the feelings are far less intense.

So honestly, the real question is, how do I control such a thing, and could I refine it so that I could have a more accurate reading as I once was able, but still maintain this control? Or would it be too dangerous?

I am not sure if this is the best place to be asking such a question but I figured I may as well try to get some form of input. You all seem very kind and helpful. ^^;


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:03 am 
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Regarding having a buzz… The ‘spirits’ or whatever you want to call them (or it) is always present. Always. Like Right Now.

In my experience, I’ve been warned the few times I was out communicating under that circumstance. The warnings actually scared me. But you know, other forms of Shamanic Travel specifically involve drugs or other tools.
I’m just talking about my experience.

You say you don’t have a spiritual connection, though you’re picking up vibes from other living beings. It sounds to me like you are very close to finding your connection.


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 Post subject: Re: Help?
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:37 pm 
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Perhaps it is less about the drug/plant/entheogen and more about the respect of it's use? The recreational, 'just for a laugh', addictive, experiential use doesn't honour the plant spirit at all, nor does it teach us anything or help anyone.

Each plant spirit should be respected especially those who gives us access to the other worlds.


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