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Should shamanic healing be free?
Would you pay for shamanic healing? 74%  74%  [ 43 ]
Should it be up to the client to decide how much to pay for shamanic healing? 26%  26%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 58
 
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 Post subject: Should shamanic healing be offered free?
 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:07 pm
Posts: 13
Lately some people were suggesting that all healing ceremonies should be given for free as it is work of spirits, and shamans are only messengers of spirit.

Some shamans I know claim that people should pay as an act of energy exchange, even symbolically. Historically people who seek a shaman help brought him food and other gifts.

As one shaman once told me. No body pays me for the healing. They pay me for my time.

I would love to hear your opinions.
Aho


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 Post Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:21 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 am
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Location: London, England
Hiya,

I couldn't use the poll here, but I'd vote that no, it shouldn't be free, shamans can, always have, and should continue to ask for payment appropriate to their own needs and to their community.

Because I agree re the time - plus, the training, the commitment of a whole life, for most of us...

My experience in the big wide world, long before I got called to this path, was, people value things they pay for, and not things that are thrown at them for nothing.

When I first started doing shamanic healing, I didn't charge, and I found that people would miss appointments (which, given I can do up to 3 hours intense prep on the day, just for practical stuff) rather sucks.

I have run small groups for a fee that have filled up way quicker than the (free) Medicine for the Earth meetings I'm offering shortly, I'm beginning to think I made a big mistake making them free.

Add to that the slim (hopefully) but entirely possible risk of injury to the shaman, the fact that being a plumber, a gifted musician, or a nurse are all "gifts" from God/Source, and you have a clear and uncontestable case for treating shamanism like any other skill, IMO. :)

And what does it say about the client's own empowerment, that they come to us as people we expect to not have the basic ability to spare some cash?

To fill out the questions you asked, yes I have and will again pay for shamanic healing for myself, from someone I trust and rate able to do it, just as I have paid and continue to pay good solid cash for trainings and ongoing learning that help me to fulfil my path:

and, while I never turn someone away because they can't pay my usual fee, the idea the client sets the fee 100% of the time makes a mockery of the idea people take shamanism seriously as a valued skill in their community.

I know of no other profession that accepts this idea - neither priests, doctors, plumbers, nor sewer cleaners give of their time for nothing, or for optional handouts based on that day's mood.

Do we want the only "shamans" who can practice, given that it's for free/gratuities, to be the kind of well-off dilettantes who buy for a course in shamanism in exotic Peru one year, a course in paragliding in St Tropez the next?! :D

I think a shaman should be fit and keen to walk in both worlds as a successful empowered (and empowering) soul, not as a beggar, or someone treating clients as charity cases or gracious patrons.

Wotcha reckon, folks? :wink:


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:09 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 6:50 am
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Location: Pennsylavania
Eagle, Nova,

I couldn't agree with you more. Let’s give the wounded healer scenario. A shaman may not have been able to hunt. A shaman would have to work on their skill and tend to the needs of his or her people. I have heard people say that a shaman does other jobs as well as shamanism. I say what do you do when there are many folks showing up for free work? Say to them Sorry but I have to go and plow the field, come back at the end of the season.

I have experienced the North American medicine men saying you cannot buy spirit. Ok I agree with that one. Guess what, fix their roof, bring them several spam of groceries, offer gas money, buy a set of tires for their worn out truck.

Tobacco is the usual exchange. In case people do not know how to make a proper tobacco offering here is how.
1. Find a medicine man.
2. State your intent.
3. Offer the tobacco.
4. Be ready to do what that medicine man asks of you. (within reason)

You should help them out with their time.

In the South America I have experienced several times that you have to show up with an offering or the illness may go back on that person or the shaman.

I once asked about this and a shaman replied. "That person was not ready to give up anything."

I can say from the offerings I have received 95% of them are transferred to some other form.

I once asked for some help for my fiancée to go to Ecuador. I had not less than 20 people show up in the next few weeks. (Talk about not getting to work) We took the green offerings and helped her out with plane fair and an offering to the shaman she stayed with.

On the other note, I say never turn anyone away who doesn't have an offering. One of my funny stories involves asking someone to repair the holes in some of my work pants.

Traveler

www.selfempowermentsociety.com


Last edited by Traveler1400 on Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 am
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Location: London, England
Traveler1400 wrote:
Eagle, Nova,
I have experienced the North American medicine men saying you cannot buy spirit. Ok I agree with that one.
Me too.

Of course, you can't buy music either, or artistic ability, or courage - yet musicians, artists and soldiers usually get paid, and no-one would suggest that doctors and nurses work for free, struggling to support themselves with evening jobs, just for the pleasure of healing! :D

I'm self-emplotyed and do odds and ends of other paid work, mostly in IT where the client I am working for is in the same general realm of improving/empowering others, but spirit kicks my butt any time I'm too busy doing that to do my "real" job.... :wink:

I wouldn't dream of not paying any person who performed a service for me on the grounds that their skill wasn't their to sell - not least as, the very Being who gave them it also seems to have created and supported a world in which money is needed to keep a roof over your head, and food on the table.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:04 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:26 am
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Location: Bavaria, Germany
A shaman is a human being with deeds like family and so on - things everyone else also have in daily life. Shamanising is a kind of service to the community and should be respected by the client as such. No one would argue with a carpenter paying the time and energy the carpenter invested - so why should a shaman be altruistic and hungry after his job?

Shamans are specialists and human beings. Clients not even paying for example a feather or tobacco (which I clearly consider as a kind of payment) often do not take a shamanic session serious enough. In my eyes this is not respectful to the shaman and the spirits. In western culture money is a kind of valid payment - so: what is the problem in paying a shaman some money for his work with the spirits? The shaman can buy something or spend the money - the client has the necessary energetic balance kept.

I pay shamans for their work when I need them and I take it as common sense to be paid as shaman when working for clients - bringing it to a point.

Yours,

Apu Kuntur


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 Post subject: HUMAN BEING SHAMANS AND MASTERS
 Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:35 am
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Location: CUSCO - MACHU PICCHU
Sisters and brothers from the world community,

Pachamama is offering everything to us, she is our mother and will provide everything we need.

Once I was working during a week with a famous healer from Brasil: Joao de Deus (John of God). During one week almost 6 thousand people were in the front to be heal, we were in the front of TV, Radios, News Papers, and he was manifesting the power of the divine with his incredible healings.

What the organization charged to get him in the Andes with 10 other healers of his center was US$ 10 per person. This money was not for him, but yes for the arrangements to get all the people traveling him in this healing action in the Andes and to help others with the creation of healing centers.

Of course that the official medicine, the official doctors wanted to see what was all this and he in a very open way tried to teach some of them about the power of the divine. Every body was surprised for his incredible work of healing and no body could question about.

The official reaction couldn't wait to come to question the money that he will receive of the locals, I mean US$ 10 per person of 6 thousand (which means US$ 60,000), that this will be more than enough to cover the 10 disciples with everything. In technical ways, the cost to get them out of their official work and have one week just to heal over seas will cost in expenses probably the 50% and the rest will go to other benefit actions. So when the journalist asked him about this, his answer was surprising, because this is something that is not happening to every body. When he was asked about the money, he said: I DO NOT NEED TO RECEIVE ANY OF THIS MONEY, WHICH IF IT IS MORE THAN WE NEEDDED TO ARRIVE HERE, WILL GO TO OTHER BENEFIT ACTIONS. I DO NOT NEED TO RECEIVE ANYTHING, BECAUSE THE UNIVERSE PROVIDED ME ALREADY WITH EVERYTHING I NEED, I OWN A MINE OF PRECIOUS STONES, SO DO NOT NEED ANY OF THE MONEY. THE UNIVERSE PUT ME HERE TO DO MY WORK AND THIS IS WHAT I DO.

Face to this answer, I was surprise myself, because some need to fight a lot in order to get the sustainable material to have their lives and this is forcing to people to use their healing gifts to exchange with money.

Personally I think that the pain of somebody has not a price and we can make someone be blessed with a our personal action of healing. In my personal vision, there is not price to charge for a shamanic sharing, since everything comes from the Universe, but it will be a price to share when this involves general things as the transportations and other logistical things that people need to arrange.

I don't claim that people has to own a precious stones mine, but yes, more than this, the Universe itself.

With gratitude to the healers that the Universe manifest through their hands the power and wisdom.

From the Andes,

Mallku


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:57 am
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Location: London, England
I shall try that one with my landlord next time the rent's due! :D

Thanks for sharing though, it's a lovely story! :wink:


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:45 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:49 pm
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Location: France
I agree with the above statements. Payment is actually a contract for me. I engage myself and so does the client. I don't want to do a shamanic healing if the client doesn't want to commit to healing themselves.
I've also seen that courses or healings offered for free are often considered uninteresting for the people that were originally willing to engage themselves.

That said I want to state that I sometimes offer my time for free when that someone may not have the means to pay. I will never refuse a healing if someone can't pay.

Also I sometimes say that the client may pay afterwards what they think it is worth to them and if they decide not to pay, then I will not hold any judgement.

Willem


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 Post subject: Pay for results
 Post Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 2:32 pm 
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Pay for results that are clear and identifiable. Guarantee your work. If you can facilitate the restoration of health, then you should be paid. If you can't, you have no pay coming. This means testing your work to illustrate the results before accepting payment. Measure their emotional intensity before starting on a particular painful issue. Then measure it (0-10 scale) after your work. No results, no pay. Same with physical issues; measure before and after.

I don't buy the idea that some result MAY occur later. It MAY not! If you want to use that rationalization, then don't take payment until later! Also, the notion that it is an energetic/spiritual issue that can't be perceived consciously is asking the client to leave their welfare up to someone else. All here know that only the client can do the healing. Help is all that can be given and if the client can't sense the restoration of balance, they should not pay.

The AMA and conventional treatment has programmed people to accept less than complete healing. Don't follow their example.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:02 pm 
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Location: upstate New York
Hi everyone

I could not vote up top either? But I definately agree that money is OK to exchange because everything is energy and whether it be money or food that is exchanged, an exchange there should be!


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 Post subject: compensation for healing?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:55 pm
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Location: Eagle Creek, OR
when i first began seeing clients, i thought for a long time about the energy exchange. i asked the spirits. they said to begin slowly, ask for whatever was in the hearts of the people coming to me.

they asked me to think very long and hard about how i might follow old traditional ways of exchange. could I organize my clients in such a way that they could pay my electricity or waste management bill, buy groceries for me? i pondered this. and then They helped me see that i do not need a horse or goat or sheep right now. and i have on a bill-paying system...

how had i come to be doing this work? how was i so blessed to have great teachers who shared their wisdom with me that i could heal and then do this work on behalf of others? look to their example...

i saw that i wanted to be generous, accommodating, but still pay the bills...it serves no one if i can not take care of myself and my family. and to remember that money is a currency of love. this view of money has so been altered in this modern world. my gifts of money to my teachers, waterpourers, intercessors always come from the heart in gratitude for what they do in the world.

as has been mentioned, one my teachers said--ask to be compensated for your time, not the healing. so i do.

And,
I never charge for ceremony. i still believe in this. like a promise i have made to the people who have so graciously gifted me with the main ceremony i facilitate--the lodge ceremony. it is and in my opinion, should always be, a gift to the people from spirit.

and thank you to all who have written about this topic...it is an important one to sit with in the heart at these times.

lauri@hiddenlakeretreat.org
Lauri


Last edited by lauri@hiddenlake on Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:20 pm 
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I agree with much that has already been said. If I was not paid for healing and teaching then my time would have to be spent earning a living doing something else :( - so the healing and teaching, which are my true passion, talent and calling, would not be available to those who seek them and my spirit would shrivel. How could I be authentic and responsible for helping people with problems of spirit and self worth, if that were the case?

Money is so often a huge cause of embarrassment - whether you have plenty or not enough. It is just energy, a material reflection of self worth, sharing, and attitude to the real abundance of spirit. Healing is needed everywhere - to live in most places on Earth, at this time, and be there to offer healing, we need some. :roll:

The training and personal work to arrive at this place on my journey have cost cash and time - as someone else said earlier, it is those that the client pays for, the healing is by rights already their own.
I also never turn away anyone who can't pay, and don't mind a fair trade or a swap either! :D

Love and blessings to all beings


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 Post subject: Goofy poll
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:28 pm 
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Location: Denver
The two questions in this poll are set up in an either/or format - incorrectly, I'd say. Actually they seem like two separate questions. I say Yes to each. (And I realized I needed to register and log in before I could vote)

The 1st - Would I pay for shamanic healing? Yes, I would and have done so in the past. If I can "invest" in good-quality food or dental work or eyeglasses, why on earth wouldn't I "invest" in my own well-being-in-spirit as well?

The 2nd - Should it be up to the client to decide how much to pay for shamanic healing? This is how my services are offered, by donation, although I mention the range this has taken with previous clients as a guideline: people don't want to feel foolish or insulting by offering "too much" or "too little." I've also done barter. I haven't turned anyone away for lack of funds, but it's very rare that people offer nothing at all. This is an energy exchange.

Some of the folks I've met who were most vocally opposed to accepting money for healing (allegedly on moral grounds) have had other substantial sources of income, i.e. had married well (or "divorced well") or had inherited wealth. Those who have wealth they've earned themselves seem to have more respect for the money=energy exchange concept.

A side note here: A friend has told me that when he gets his Tarot cards read from a reader who charges $100 per reading, "I invest in paying attention! And she knows I'm not there out of idle curiosity." Not entirely a similar situation and not the approach I currently use, but I see the point.


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 Post subject: the modern shaman's conundrum
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:21 pm
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I'd like to echo Mallku's sentiments by asking a question I pose to myself over and over:

If we truly believe truly believe that the spirits help us and others heal, why do we not also believe that the spirits will materially provide for us?

It's a conundrum faced by those in the modern capitalist world, mainly as we're been raised to think that we are only as valuable as the money we earn.

I'd like to challenge that belief -- if we really, truly believe in the work that we do, would it be possible for us to trust that "spirit will provide"?

Incidentally, not charging money for our work doesn't mean excluding all forms of reciprocal exchange. Reciprocity allows trust to grow in relationships, so accepting some type of offering, something that conveys a client's gratitude, would seem a meaningful exchange.

This conversation is a challenging one to us all, and I suspect the answer to the question lies in the individual practitioner.

Carrie


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 Post subject: Re: Should shamanic healing be offered free?
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:54 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:10 pm
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... healing ceremonies should be given for free as it is work of spirits, and shamans are only messengers of spirit.

My argument would be that it is elitist to NOT be paid. The premise is that shamans are doing the work of spirit, and others are not. I think whether or not a person is doing the work of spirit is difficult or impossible to tell from the outside, and that a case could be made that everyone is doing the work of spirit. Certainly I would say that a beautiful work of art, or an inspired idea, or a brilliant scientific achievement are all the work of spirit. Personally, I think my garbage man is doing the work of spirit. Once a week he comes by and takes the heaviest of the heavy energy away from my house and returns it to the earth. Although shamans may be more conscious about their channeling of spirit, I do not believe the work of the shaman is inherently more noble than any other labor of love.


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