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Should shamanic healing be free?
Would you pay for shamanic healing? 74%  74%  [ 43 ]
Should it be up to the client to decide how much to pay for shamanic healing? 26%  26%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 58
 
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 Post subject: Payment for Healings ....
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Cheney, WA 99004
Greetings One and All;

As for paying for the healings I do agree that is a bad thing but you are paying for the time that the person is setting aside for you.

I think we need to go back to looking at the time frame that we live in at this time. Shaman's of the tribes were given things for their time from the people who came to them ( food, clothes, etc.). We have the means of different ways now that is the green dollar to have to pay for our own supplies so I think whatever the practitioner puts on the value is what it would be for their time. (The going rate for normal pay federal is $8-9/hr)


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:58 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:58 pm
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Location: Central Texas, USA
You ask a very fundamental question about our belief structures, and it is posed in the classic spirit vs social / cultural sort of way. On the surface it appears that there is only one right answer (or maybe two) for any individual. And any set of reasoning can be used to "prove" the rightness of that point of view.

I wonder if the correct question is not something different - perhaps, something like "how does my point of view about money (or about exchange) change as I change how I think about myself and life?"

or maybe the question is something else - "at what point in my life did I accept the symbol of money as a fair method of exchange? and do I feel differently about money than I do about a hug, about food, about crying?"


There is an old Chinese story about 3 brothers within a village. All were healers. The most well known and richest was the brother, who could bring someone back from the brink of death. The second most skilled brother was the healer, who could mend broken bones and treat patients with herbs. These two brothers knew a secret that few else in the village knew. They knew that their other brother was actually the most skilled, albeit the least well known. The third brother's great skill as a healer was he knew how to keep his people healthy, so that they were not prone to sickness and disease in the first place. Was payment "fair?" Who is to say? It depends on how you view the story and where you see yourself.

As people creating a society, we build up the rules and stories, that support the environment we are familiar with (the past) or the environment we want to live in (future). This is our way. We are storytellers. Rules and stories seldom function, when you are living in the exact present moment with no preconceived ideas about who or what you are.

Money is a very human thing. I really can't recall a time, when I saw a hawk swoop into a flock of birds, catch one and then drop a bunch of birdseed for the ones, that were left. But I have heard the hawk trill and call - a sound that seems to reach to the spirit of all birdness and say "I Am" and "We Are One."

Money is a very mental thing. The rules and stories surrounding its use and misuse, are what tell us about how we see ourselves, through the eyes of the mental mind. When we try to compare "going into the dark" or "holding the light" with anything, what we are really doing is allowing the mental mind to attempt to find a way to understand and control something that it does not understand.

The mind can eventually understand, and can eventually release its reflexive desire to control. When it does, the question about monetary exchange no longer exists.

My Thoughts on This Day,
Buttercup


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:26 pm
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Location: Mexico
Hi. I just became a member, thank you all.

Yes, I'd pay and Yes, I'd want to be paid when asked to do a session. Payment can be in $ money or any other currency like service, food, or other from their heart given things.

To my opinion, this little ritual closes karmic circles and avoids further problems. Usually the rate can be kind'a flexible depending on the person who asks for the service.


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 Post subject: Healing
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Location: hyperspace
A Shaman or healer or anyone providing a service is entitled to some sort of exchange, nothing in this universe is without some sort of "price to pay". Nothing comes "free", as we pay for or work for sustinence for the body, one must expect the same for spirit.


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 Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:20 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:51 am
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Location: York, UK
To me this question is really core to our relationship with the Cosmos and our place in it: after years of dancing around the matter, the Universe has finally shown me that, whilst it's entirely appropriate that we should be recompensed for our time and that it's important that our work should to be valued and appreciated so that there is balance, it's also important that we do not in any way rely on our clients for a living.
The Universe has the freedom to give us a living from the work that we do, but it is essential that we are able to offer our gifts freely and openly, without there being a need on our part for the money that clients may bring. If we have to rely on our clients for our physical wellbeing, we're no longer able to be the generous, giving, expression of the Cosmos that it is our place to be.


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 Post subject: Sobre cobrar o no cobrar
 Post Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:13 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Mexico
Creo que un Shaman deberia cobrar x sus servicios. El dinero es energia y hay que saber manejarlo con sabiduria, prudencia y honestidad.
A veces, tambien se pueden recibir remuneraciones no necesariamente con dinero.
De hecho, se de gente que cobra pero canaliza ese dinero en ayudar a otros en una cadena de beneficencia muy util para todos.
Saludos y espero puedan leer esta opinion en español.
Por cierto, ¿hay alguien que hable español por aqui?
Yeitekpatl


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 Post subject: fees for service
 Post Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:03 pm
Posts: 2
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Everyone needs to make their own choice around taking money. Not to judge those who charge but I have been doing this work since 1991 and do not charge for it except when it is obvious the person coming for the healing needs to pay, which does not happen very often. My life is filled with abundance. You have bought into the western view of 'exchange of energy' philosophy which has locked you into the need for payment. It is NOT true that people who do not pay do not appreciate the healing nor benefit from it. The ones who need to pay are the ones who do not appreciate the healing or benefit from it, but I do not worry about it, it is their problem. Teaching, on the other hand, does require payment. Again, I do not worry about it, if they don't pay they do not benefit from the teaching.

Rarely does anyone not show up for their healing. When they don't, it is for a variety of reasons but it is never because of payment.

I am, by profession a nurse, and know what 'giving of service' to others without spirit involved looks like. It is not pretty. When you expect and demand payment for your services, you are engaging in a contract with the other person, as others have said, but beware, you may not be aware of what your end of the bargain really is, or what is expected of you. I personally prefer to keep myself clean of those expectations, then I can just do the work.

The key to it all is to check in with your spirits and listen to your body. Your body will tell you when to charge and when not to. If you rely on this work to feed you, be careful, you are walking a razor's edge, it is not bad to receive money for your work, it is what it ends up forcing you to do and become that is the problem.


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 Post subject: I think shaman should have some compensation
 Post Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:45 pm
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Location: New Mexico
I have never been to a indigenous medicine person or shaman where I never gave them something. It wasn't set up like a doctor bill but everyone knew they were supposed to give the bundle to the medicine man. Everyone knew to bring food, wood, etc to the sweat. We also would give gifts and money. We did this out of respect. But it is a part of our culture. I find with regular American Shaman that a lot are charging so much that regular people could never go to their stuff. I feel they are only about how much money they are getting and not about healing people. The indigenous people I have gone to left the amount up to us and we always paid as much as we could because we know the spirit people want this of us. This is to give back to the spirit people for having worked through the medicine man for us.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:55 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:23 pm
Posts: 45
Location: Euclid, OH
If we all lived in a traditional way, where the "neighborhood" was one people, where we all knew one another as friends, where we all pitched in for the common good, and helped raise each other's children, take care of the elders, etc., then I would say, what good would "payment" be, when we live our lives making sure the community is cared for? But hey, we don't live like that, most of us, do we?

Another concept that has been touched upon here is the idea of "exchange" and worth. What is my time and my medicine "worth"?

I find that Westerners in general value money; and to get something for nothing makes that something nearly worthless in the minds of the people. There is a psychological mindset here in modern Western times that says, "You get what you pay for." I would much rather offer my services to someone in exchange for something else of value that would enrich and nourish me, and in our facility in Euclid we are slowly getting back TO that within our small budding community there. But for the "outside world", to not charge is to seemingly demean the "value" of our work.

Crowtalker


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:42 pm
Posts: 26
Location: London
I remember going back to Tuva after I had finished my apprenticeship there.

My teacher asked me to go and help him on a job, and after it was done, we were give two live sheep from the family.

When I got back to London I wonder what a sheep would cost and checked out a livestock website.

And I found that a live sheep costs roughtly the same as most alternative healers charge per session.

Mackenzie Blyth

http://macadyg.googlepages.com/


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 Post subject: money & shaman
 Post Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:13 pm
Posts: 1
Location: BC Canada
So many times this question rises and falls. In a world caught on the brink of ecological extinction, war, cruelty and disparity it may seem a trivial subject for any discussion.
However the question itself should be questioned so as to come to some understanding as to what the real asking is about and then, to move to a surrender and acceptance of the energy behind such a question.

The question contains three parts:
 the Shaman
 being paid
 and ‘should’ as a statement of value.

Exploring ‘Shaman’ initially may help bring clarity to part of the dilemma.

The Shaman of today is skilful in observation, watching the world around them and using that data to focus a direction for others. The Shaman is a relationist, observing relationships and bringing attention to dysfunctional areas within that relationship. These relationships are seen at a higher level of consciousness as well as mundane consciousness.

The Shaman is a focus of truth & integrity. The role of the Shaman, as it has always been, is to bring harmonious union in the separations within relationships. In this way the Shaman heals through connection and communion.

In today’s world, humankind has become separate from the communion of the world and the Universe. We have come to see our selves as some sort of superior being that needs to control and own the world and the Universe. We are lost to the communal process of the Universe - we have split ourselves and have created a dualist world of ‘them and us’ in the way we live with others and our selves. Never more so than today, the role of the Shaman is essential in the re-unification and the healing of our people.

Shamanism is not a religion but a spiritual way of life. Even saying ‘spiritual’ creates duality; in truth it is more correct to say that Shamanism is both an holistic and relational way of being. This must imply that a Shaman is of the world in which they live, not lost in some mystical flight that disconnects them from the reality of modern day human existence. We can still get caught up in the theatre of ritual and paraphernalia and it is these outward signs that connect to the primal, not primitive, essence of our selves and lead us to an innocence and integrated way of being.

The Shaman of today is healer, counsellor, priest, teacher, warrior, lover, creator and actor. Most of all they are guides for those lost in the dark, a place of own doubts and fears. To reach this place, many Shaman undergo long and traumatic training and initiation. At this point the concept of ‘the gift’ is often interjected; that the Shaman has a gift bestowed on them by Spirit. This is indeed true along with many, many other gifts bestowed.

As we understand the beneficence of Spirit we have to appreciate that Spirit does not favour one soul above or below another. In a universe that functions on harmony and equality we cannot assume that such a universe, such a Divine consciousness, would have favourites - this is a human ego failing!
As such every incarnate soul has access to all gifts, knowledge and wisdom held by the Creator Spirit and it is then our incarnating choice that manifests and develops specific skills and gifts. All have the gift to paint but only some of us choose to develop that gift. Running beside this is the karmic contract that we are fulfilling in conjunction with the Great Spirit, mandated and chosen before birth. So regardless of the tradition, being a Shaman does not accidentally happen; skill, time, wounding, karmic debt, choice, study, sacrifice - all have played a part in the final Shamanic manifestation.

As for being paid…..

Money is any token or other object that functions as a medium of exchange that is socially and legally accepted in payment for goods and services and in settlement of debts. If there is a debt then there is a vacuum and an imbalance in the cosmic flow! Payment is a token exchange of time to bring the universal debt back to balance and harmony so that no one beholds or owes and so that all leave equal and empowered. The Shamanic way is to bring healing through this balance, not to maintain imbalances between us.

Money also serves as a standard of value for measuring the relative worth of different goods and services. This value is related directly to the time and the quality of that time that the ‘purveyor’ has input into their ‘produce’. In today’s world of convenience money is the ultimate covenient symbol of ‘what I would give you if I had the time!” Maybe here we see the edge of the issue when it comes to healers - who places and decides the value the value of his or her time?

If we can see that money is a symbol of time, then the only decision is value in sense of time and maybe the quality of that time. We see a painting by a gifted artist but we don’t expect it to be free. We may even discover the artist has suffered for their art and may then be inclined to pay that asking price.
It is this dilemma of comparing time - is my time as valuable as yours?

A wage (often money and money a symbol for time) is a compensation which workers receive in exchange for their labour (time). Wage derives from words which suggest "making a promise", especifically from the old French word wagier or gagier, meaning to pledge or promise and from which the money placed in a bet (wager) also derives. These in turn may derive from the French gager to wager, the Gothic wadi, or the Late Latin wadium, also meaning "a pledge". So paying is keeping a promise. Apply this to paying a helaer or Shaman; the promise to be well, the promise to live a truer life, a promise to respect ourselves and therefore others.

As already stated the Shaman has, from choice, given time that has focussed on the shedding of spiritual blood. That is a valuable piece of time. But are they qualified enough or even eligible enough (given their spiritual calling) to decide a value for their own time? Or do we expect that we can use the service of such a person without the responsibility of replenishing their value?

It has always been that healers and Shaman were gifted to honour their skill, compassion, and time. Many Shaman were paid in food or habitation; early priests were supported by their parishes, bhuddist monks are fed by donations.

Once when working with a First Nations Healer we were talking about appropriate gifts of honour for Traditional Healers. She and I spoke of tobacco, blankets and herbs, being the traditional giftings.
She lived with her large family of children, grandchuildren and soon to be great grandchild. While we were in this deep and spiritual conversation a grandchild came in to ask if they could go and see the latest movie in town. The woman made some excuse and dismissed the child. She called me to a large trunk and opening it I saw that it was overflowing with tobacco pouches; downstairs she showed me a room piled to the ceiling with blankets. She looked at me and said that she couldn’t find the money to buy two movie tickets but still people came with blankets and tobacco! (In her tradition she is not allowed to sell or give away these gifts).

As a Shaman and psychologist I value my training and my teachers who spent so long training me, as well as my continued professional and spiritual development. All who come to see me are welcome and I value them and their time. Most pay me according to their value (I do have a set fee which is always negotiable) and some pay me with gifts or services. Some do not pay at all. The focus is on empowerment and equality which open a path to healing. I am generous with my time and appreciate that I am in (my choice) service. My generosity is to those who are generous to their own value.

Should a Shaman be paid?

Who is asking the question? Are we so caught in the western view of money and power that we can no longer appreciate the simpler concept of gratitude, respect and energy exchange? Maybe in paying a Shaman we have to become aware of our own value. Until we accept our own value all the Shaman in the world will just be an excuse to avoid the truth of the question. “Am I worth paying for?’ The answer may be the true payment not just to the Shaman, but in bringing a value to others through answering. In answering we change the world to be a place of gratitude, respect, equality and harmony
www.circleofgreatmystery.com


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Quote:
Should shamanic healing be free?

Everyone has to eat and have a roof over their head. If you don't need the money and the person who needs help, understands that help can be given even if no money has been exchanged; then why not do it for free.

If you need money, don't take to much of. It's an illusion of power and believing in it to much can make your head spin. :wink:


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:15 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:54 pm
Posts: 237
Location: Australia
Greetings travellingman

Indeed.

I believe it is called "balance".

Elizabeth :wink:


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:45 pm 
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enocheye wrote:
Greetings travellingman

Indeed.

I believe it is called "balance".

Elizabeth :wink:


Or common sense. I've got more of that then money. :wink:


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 Post Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:54 pm
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Location: Australia
Greetings Travellingman,

Indeed also.

I see this path has met another.
Welcome to the middle way. Happy to share the path in conversation.

Elizabeth


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